Freethought & Rationalism Archive

razlyubleno · 03-24-2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

And Jesus called Peter "Satan".

You'll notice that in Mark the only people who identify Jesus as the Christ, are possessed by unclean spirits. Oh yeah, and then Peter does it. "Get behind me, Satan!" Heh. I wonder what Mark was up to...

storytime · 03-24-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

Belief in Christianity is based on historical facts that cannot be honestly denied. Belief in anything else, including your beliefs, have no foundation - they are only based in blind faith.

I see the reverse applying, and I wouldn't care if christianity was not also based on negation and villification of another. If Budhism or atheism, for example, have their own 'beliefs' that is fine - as long as its not a death-to-you advocation hiding behind that belief. This is what christianity, then Islam, are based on - otherwise good luck to them and to each their own.

There is not an iota of historical fact in the NT, and comparing this with the Hebrew is insane. Put simply, the jews were stiff necks and demanded proof - and got it [the texts!], while not a single soul in Europe asked for proof - and if they did they would see clearly there is none. Not even that Jews killed your Lord - itself an insane belief which has thus far destroyed billions of innocent lives and set humanity on a path of chaos!

If you would get off your evangelical soapbox I might learn something from your posts. Like honestly, we all know that the big three - Judaism, Christianity and Islam are ALL death-cults. All accuse one another as if the one accusing were innocent.

btw, When did Jewish people ever deny killing Jesus or conspiring to have him killed? When did Jewish rabbi's ever deny there was a Jesus the Jewish militant? They may have hated him but when have they denied Jesus was a Jew? Let's see, it's been how long now, 2000 years? Where is the Jewish decree stating that "there was never a Jesus the Jew?" Maybe if we can get this out of the way, then proving Christianity an illegitimate construct will be much more simple. You think?

storytime · 03-24-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razlyubleno

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

And Jesus called Peter "Satan".

You'll notice that in Mark the only people who identify Jesus as the Christ, are possessed by unclean spirits. Oh yeah, and then Peter does it. "Get behind me, Satan!" Heh. I wonder what Mark was up to...

I've no idea but smell a big time conspiracy.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by aChristian

They were first astonished that he claimed to have met Abraham and then after this he said, "before Abraham was, I AM". So they were first astonished about his claim to have met Abraham and then next he went even farther, claiming to be the I AM (Yahweh) of the Old Testament.

There is a good discussion of this passage here:

Yahshua was not declaring that he is the great "I AM" of Ex.3:14. There are many occurrences in the Greek, which proves that the term "I am" is a very common phrase, a verb of existence, meaning "I am He" or "I am the one." This phrase by it's self is not a 'stone-able' offense, for it is used many times. As we have already shown, there were a lot of implications in this chapter which ground into the minds and heart of the Yahudain leaders.

And besides, in any language or in any context the statement doesn't make sense. Accept for a moment that Jesus really was invoking the forbidden name of God; "Before Abraham was, John Q Public". ????? That makes absolutely no sense.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by razlyubleno

There has been debate even among Rabbis in the Talmud, as to whether Job existed or not.

Looks like the quarrel between mythicists and historicists goes back a long way.

I didn't realize there another side to the debate. The story of Job appears in much older Mesopotamian texts. I thought it had been resolved CENTURIES ago, Job is not originally a Hebrew story. No where in the story is Job identified as Hebrew, either.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamJoseph

What is not debatable, is that only Moses can resolve the chaos fostered by chrstianity and islam - neither of their messengers can assist here: each would not accept the other's and demand their own. But none can tell Moses what Moses meant, so why even ask for anyone else?

Christianity without the trinity, without the divinity of Jesus, without the incarnation and vicarious atonement, Christianity stripped of all its distinctive characteristics, is nothing but the universal religion of Yahve, such as was conceived and proclaimed by the greatest prophets and wisest teachers of Israel, among whom I count and reverence the immortal prophet and teacher of Nazareth. Christianity without a Christian dogma is not the religion of the genuine historical Christian churches. It is the universal faith which is usually named Judaism. It is what I call Yahvism in order to dissociate it in consciousness from the element of the race. It is the universal religion of broad humanity, of justice, of love and holiness. It is the religion of Moses, of Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hillel, and Jesus. It is the ethical monotheism of Israel without the limitations and the trammels of race, without the yoke of ceremonial law. It is the religion which I and all enlightened rabbis profess and teach.--Yahvism, and other discourses / Adolph Moses: p. 162.

As a Follower of Jesus, who once stayed at Hillel House and likes Matzos, thinks Yarmulkes are kinda cool and wishes The Jews had never crossed the Jordan to begin with... I agree with everything you just wrote. (By the way, I don't believe for one second that Paul ever studied under Hillel, Gamaliel the Elder or any other Rabbi in Jerusalem.)
I would love to learn more, Rabbi.

I just read the Chapter entitles The First and Greatest of All Moral Ideals, and part of the introductory speech...
well, I just have to say... FANTASTIC!

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

I didn't realize there another side to the debate. The story of Job appears in much older Mesopotamian texts. I thought it had been resolved CENTURIES ago, Job is not originally a Hebrew story. No where in the story is Job identified as Hebrew, either.

Well, you can read the whole discussion here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

As a Follower of Jesus, who once stayed at Hillel House and likes Matzos, thinks Yarmulkes are kinda cool and wishes The Jews had never crossed the Jordan to begin with... I agree with everything you just wrote.

Great!

Quote:

(By the way, I don't believe for one second that Paul ever studied under Hillel, Gamaliel the Elder or any other Rabbi in Jerusalem.)

Why not? Sholem Asch wrote a couple of great novels that might interest you: The Nazarene and The Apostle (or via: amazon.co.uk). The depiction of Paul in these works is very good.

Quote:

I would love to learn more, Rabbi.

There is a great deal of work of a similar vein. You might like A Jewish View of Jesus by Hyman Gerson Enelow. The book that I consider definitive on this subject is Our Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Constantin Brunner.

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Why not? Sholem Asch wrote a couple of great novels that might interest you: The Nazarene and The Apostle (or via: amazon.co.uk). The depiction of Paul in these works is very good.

OK... crap... there goes my comfortable belief system again...

No Robots · 03-25-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcdad

OK... crap... there goes my comfortable belief system again...

kcdad · 03-25-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Well, you can read the whole discussion here.

Didn't find anything except discussion about walls and fences... and Herod and the Hammoredians and some young girl

Enelow is fantastic

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.