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Old 05-26-2008, 01:47 PM   #11
vid
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Andrew Criddle: Thank you very much for your research. Either there is desperately few online resources on early judaism, or I am unable to find quality ones. I remember not so long ago, when I started studying early christianity, and sources were so much easier to find...

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Sanhedrim, Shabbat and Sotah are tractates of the Mishnah which are expanded in the Gemara (later commentaries) of the Talmud. So yes they are parts of the Talmud.
So, Mishnah contained Sanhedrim, Shabbat, and Sotah. Later, people commented on Mishnah (Talmud). Even more later, based on those commentaries, they extended these three (and others), and added more material (called "Gemara", considered extension of Talmud).

That would imply, Mishnah version of these books contain less material. More material is added by Gemara. But since there were two version of Talmud, there are also two version of "later commentary" Gemara. And only one of these later commentaries (Gemaras) contains "hanged Jeshua" verse, right?

PS: I realize my "I'm confused of judaism" questions are annoying, but you're really helping me through things that I wasn't able to understand for long time, even though I repeatedly tried. Thanks again.
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Old 05-26-2008, 06:48 PM   #12
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Both Talmuds are intended as a source of halakah (halakhah), providing authoritative guidance about how to live a kosher life. In detail, their halakah sometimes differ and IIUC modern orthodox Jews regard the halakah of the Babylonian Talmud and not the Jerusalem Talmud as authoritative for Jewish life.

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The Talmud cannot be used as an authoritative source in making a Halachic ruling. The Shulchan Aruch is the source......
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
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Sanhedrim, Shabbat and Sotah are tractates of the Mishnah which are expanded in the Gemara (later commentaries) of the Talmud. So yes they are parts of the Talmud.
So, Mishnah contained Sanhedrim, Shabbat, and Sotah. Later, people commented on Mishnah (Talmud). Even more later, based on those commentaries, they extended these three (and others), and added more material (called "Gemara", considered extension of Talmud).
Not quite.

Mishnah contained tractates such Sanhedrim, Shabbat, and Sotah (and others). Later, people commented on Mishnah . Thus they extended these three (and others), and the additional material is called Gemara. IE the Talmud is made up of the Mishnah tractates expanded by the later commentary or Gemara.

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That would imply, Mishnah version of these books contain less material. More material is added by Gemara. But since there were two version of Talmud, there are also two version of "later commentary" Gemara. And only one of these later commentaries (Gemaras) contains "hanged Jeshua" verse, right?
Only the Gemara to the Babylonian Talmud contains the reference to "hanged Jeshua". The core of this passage is in the form of a baraita, which is a saying found in the Gemara and not the Mishnah, but which allegedly goes back to the period of composition of the Mishnah. It is disputed whether or not these claims to an early origin of the baraitas in the Talmud are historically accurate.

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Old 05-27-2008, 11:23 AM   #14
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The Talmud cannot be used as an authoritative source in making a Halachic ruling. The Shulchan Aruch is the source......
Thanks for corecting me here.
IIUC the Shulchan Aruch uses material from the Babylonian Talmud rather than the Palestinian Talmud.

Andrew Criddle
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Old 05-27-2008, 07:59 PM   #15
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The Talmud is made up of the Mishnah and the Gemara as explained by Andrew earlier.

The Talmud is organized into six orders. Each order is made up of tractates. Each tractate is divided into chapters (peraqim, singular peraq) and then paragraphs or verses (mishnayot, singular Mishnah).

The six orders are:
  • Zeraim ("Seeds"), dealing with prayer and blessings, tithes and agricultural laws (11 tractates)
  • Moed ("Festival"), pertaining to the laws of the Sabbath and the Festivals (12 tractates)
  • Nashim ("Women"), concerning marriage and divorce, some forms of oaths and the laws of the nazirite (7 tractates)
  • Nezikin ("Damages"), dealing with civil and criminal law, the functioning of the courts and oaths (10 tractates)
  • Kodashim ("Holy things"), regarding sacrificial rites, the Temple, and the dietary laws (11 tractates) and
  • Tohorot ("Purities"), pertaining to the laws of purity and impurity, including the impurity of the dead, the laws of ritual purity for the priests (Kohanim), the laws of "family purity" (the menstrual laws) and others (12 tractates).

In each order (with the exception of Zeraim), tractates are arranged from biggest (in number of chapters) to smallest.

The word Mishnah can also indicate a single paragraph or verse of the work itself, ie. the smallest unit of structure in the Mishnah.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz describes the Talmud:
“If the Bible is the cornerstone of Judaism, then the Talmud is the central pillar, soaring up from the foundations and supporting the entire spiritual and intellectual edifice. In many ways the Talmud is the most important book in Jewish culture, the backbone of creativity and of national life. No other work has had a comparable influence on the theory and practice of Jewish life, shaping spiritual content and serving as a guide to conduct.” Continuing, Steinsaltz wrote: “The formal definition of Talmud is the summary of oral law that evolved after centuries of scholarly effort by sages who lived in Palestine and Babylonia until the beginning of the Middle Ages. It has two main components: the Mishnah, a book of Halakhah (law) written in Hebrew; and the commentary on the Mishnah, known as the Talmud or Gemara, in the limited sense of the word, a summary of the discussion and elucidations of the Mishnah written in Aramaic-Hebrew jargon.”

Click here for a page of Talmud and a description of each section.
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