Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Evoken · 07-01-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biff the unclean

I can be sure because I have studied the book intensely. Free thinking, independent thought, is not only frowned upon, it's a sin. It's the original sin.

I see..well like I asked trendkill, can you tell me then what promotes freethought?

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You have that backwards. An Atheistic world view is the result of free thinking not the cause.

It is still the same and fixed into a formula which simply doesn't allows anyone other than the atheist to be a freethinker.

Quote:

I would smile to myself and wait three or four back and forth posts until you told me that God is beyond human reason.

I would wait two more back and forth posts for you to declare that God was beyond human understanding.

Sure I'll smile too.

Quote:

You are making what are pretty common boasts for Christians on this board. What may appear to be only snide replies on my part are what has actually happened every single time I've seen a Christian say the same thing here.

It would appear so, but feel free to surprise me.

I am not here to surprise or impress anyone, like I said in my original post my aim here is to discuss and not to debate(by this I mean fighting or attempting to convert anyone).

Quote:

Nobody can become a Christian by comparing what Christianity asserts against the actual world

Sure, but that is according to you which is fine, to me it is different. Unless that is an absolute statement and you think it applies to everyone, unfortunately this contradicts what you just said below about not adopting an ego-centric view when it comes to knowledge.

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Sure you do it with every thought about every subject, every day. Except for religion, then you suspend thought and rely on faith. With no other subject would you ever consider doing such a thing. In fact you probably consider people who behave as you do towards Christianity towards other aspects of their lives to be a bit nutty.

I bet it is not unlike yourself..right? The only thing is that you do it in reverse.

Quote:

The fact that you belong to a codified and structured belief system prevents you from free thought. That's why it's called a belief.

Well..maybe..just maybe..I agree with it and because of that I have decided to adopt that belief? It is not like I said one day..ok let be a Christian now..what do I need to do? It is not like a recipe from a cook book. In my case it came gradually and I was not brainwashed into it(of course you will disagree) and I was not forced into it since childhood.

Quote:

If the two of us were in a quandary about something only one of us has an instruction book that tells him what to think and what to do. The other is left to his own devices. I do not submit to the same influences you surrender yourself to.

I don't summit to the same influences as yourself either and you seem to think that I am a Christian fundamentalist that needs to carry The Bible around like a cane for the weak, unfortunately I am not.

Yet you seem to think that you are somehow free from anything external that guides and motivates your actions, If this were the case then your point of view would be alien to the world around you and you would not be able to interact with it, something very similar to what you claimed above about Christianity.

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was wondering how long it would be before you equated skepticism with cynicism. You obviously don't see skepticism as a positive attribute. Jesus took Thomas to task for the mildest of skepticism after all. I'm expecting you to soon mix the different definitions of the word "faith."

Like I said before I think it is good for people to question already established things, I don't view skepticism as a negative attribute but extreme skepticism like all extremes is not beneficial.

Quote:

Some folks are very gullible. So gullible in fact that they consider their gullibility, their "faith", to actually be a virtue

Yep the same way some folks are so gullible they consider their lack of "faith" to actually be a virtue. I really see no reason whatsoever for you to say that..but then again it is your opinion and I respect it.

Quote:

I cannot imagine that I could be so ego centric, so vain, that I assumed that I considered my knowledge was absolute and unchanging. I could not imagine being so closed minded that new data would be incapable of making me alter my opinions.

Me either, that is why I come here and discuss, I am looking for answers. I never claim to know everything, that is pure arrogance.

Quote:

Actually when you don't do that it means you have already settled for the answer you like and have lost interest in finding the truth.

Of course but if we do that (rebellious questioning) we may overlook the answer or truth we are looking for. If it is the one we are looking for(if we really are looking for one) or the one we like(if we really know what we want) then we may not be able to know or even admit it ourselvess.

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Sorry, but you previous statements make me doubt that you really mean that.

Well I appreciate your skepticism towards my claims.

jdlongmire · 07-01-2004, 07:56 PM

Amusing cross BB linkage Couple of thoughts I, as a Christian, use to guide my critical thinking...

Matthew 22:37
Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'

Matthew 10:16
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Romans 8:6
The mind of sinful man[ 8:6 Or mind set on the flesh] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

Romans 8:7
the sinful mind[ 8:7 Or the mind set on the flesh] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

JD

Heathen Dawn · 07-02-2004, 12:21 AM

Asimis, you as a Gnostic may be a freethinker, but the Literalists (Catholics) who suppressed your church were nothing of the sort. And Christian fundamentalists, carrying on their tradition, condemn freethought and scepticism in our day and age.

Buffman · 07-02-2004, 02:19 AM

IAsimisI

I started reading this thread and wondering where it might lead. I read Biff the uncleans's responses and inwardly sighed because he was relating the identical experiences I have encountered for most of my life when attempting to have this kind of a discussion with someone who believes in the supernatural. Here are some examples of why I suspect that your world views are conditioned by your faith beliefs...and therefore limited in their freethinking, skeptical, reasoned, inquiry into the supernatural basis of those very faith beliefs.

As for the skeptic, I agree that it is to question, doubt and test already established things. But must the skeptic turn into a cynic and never feel satisfied and say..have faith? There must be a point where the skeptic is "satisfied" and this varies from person to person, what satisfies you does not necessary has to satisfy me and vice.

I agree that it is good and even necessary to test and question already established things but to arrive at a conclusion of those very things one questions and not to be always questioning testing the same thing without arriving at a conclusion like some sort of "proof" to show your skepticism. This is what I meant by "rebellious questioning", when you do that you are no longer looking for the truth but merely for an answer that satisfies your own predisposed view of what the truth should be.

Like I said before I think it is good for people to question already established things, I don't view skepticism as a negative attribute but extreme skepticism like all extremes is not beneficial.

There are many schools of "skepticism" just as there are many schools of "cynicism."

http://www.reference.com/search?q=Skepticism

http://www.reference.com/search?q=Cynicism

Where are these "extreme/rebellious" schools of which you speak? Why "must" the skeptic/cynic be "satisfied?" Why must an inquiring and reasoning mind ever be satisfied? Doesn't that presuppose that absolute truths exist and can be known? The natural world readily admits that today's truths are as ephemeral as tomorrow's verified new facts. The supernatural world, in which faith is the prime ingredient, is subject to no constraints, limitations or verifications whatsoever. Think of it this way. In the supernatural world, morality or truth are whatever someone, or some make believe entity, claims that they are. To me, that is the most irrational of worlds...and those who have "faith" in such an irrational world have forfeited (or have had stolen/neutralized) their ability/capability to be completely honest with themselves. If one can not be intellectually honest with themselves, they can hardly be considered well rounded or accurately informed freethinkers in the arena of religion/faith beliefs...though they can remain more than capable in other areas.

http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/introduction.html

(Extracts)
Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as "true." Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
(End extract)

Cheers.

Freethinking · 07-02-2004, 02:59 AM

He that cannot reason is a fool; he that will not is a bigot; he that dare not is a slave. - Sir William Drummond c. 1770-1828 [Modern rendition: They who...]

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

It is a farce to call any being virtuous whose virtues do not result from the exercise of its own reason. -- Mary Wollstonecraft

"Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reasons and your own common sense." -- Buddha

The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence...Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God... Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith....The purpose of man's life...is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question.
[Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual]

Source: http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...uotesIndex.htm

Evoken · 07-02-2004, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buffman

I started reading this thread and wondering where it might lead. I read Biff the uncleans's responses and inwardly sighed because he was relating the identical experiences I have encountered for most of my life when attempting to have this kind of a discussion with someone who believes in the supernatural. Here are some examples of why I suspect that your world views are conditioned by your faith beliefs...and therefore limited in their freethinking, skeptical, reasoned, inquiry into the supernatural basis of those very faith beliefs.

If by this you mean to imply that I equated skepticism with cynic, then I think you misunderstood my post.

Quote:

Where are these "extreme/rebellious" schools of which you speak?Why "must" the skeptic/cynic be "satisfied?" Why must an inquiring and reasoning mind ever be satisfied? Doesn't that presuppose that absolute truths exist and can be known?The natural world readily admits that today's truths are as ephemeral as tomorrow's verified new facts.

I was not talking about a particular school but in a general sense. It seems you view "satisfied" in a negative manner, of course there are absolute truths..you don't question anymore why you eat right? Or are you still trying to verify and refute the fact that you have to eat in order to survive? Neither you question the fact that you can't fly. And these are not facts that will be changed tomorrow.

Quote:

The supernatural world, in which faith is the prime ingredient, is subject to no constraints, limitations or verifications whatsoever. Think of it this way. In the supernatural world, morality or truth are whatever someone, or some make believe entity, claims that they are. To me, that is the most irrational of worlds...and those who have "faith" in such an irrational world have forfeited (or have had stolen/neutralized) their ability/capability to be completely honest with themselves. If one can not be intellectually honest with themselves, they can hardly be considered well rounded or accurately informed freethinkers in the arena of religion/faith beliefs...though they can remain more than capable in other areas.

Oh well..I guess I will have to live with that..not being a freethinker or intellectually honest I mean. It seems that you, like Biff Unclean also think that one cannot be a freethinker if one is not an atheist or to put it more like he said that freethinking leads to atheism. Something that, in my mind..remembering that it is limited by my belief..is contrary to freethinking and skepticism.

Quote:

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as "true." Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.
(End extract)

Well, thanks for the extracts, in fact it is thanks to the knowledge of the world we have today that I believe, it is not that I am rejecting that.

Evoken · 07-02-2004, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freethinking

He that cannot reason is a fool; he that will not is a bigot; he that dare not is a slave. - Sir William Drummond c. 1770-1828 [Modern rendition: They who...]

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

It is a farce to call any being virtuous whose virtues do not result from the exercise of its own reason. -- Mary Wollstonecraft

"Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reasons and your own common sense." -- Buddha

The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence...Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God... Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith....The purpose of man's life...is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question.
[Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual]

Source: http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...uotesIndex.htm

Sure nice quotes and all but if you live by those quotes you are still adopting someone else view and as a result you are not a freethinker.

Evoken · 07-02-2004, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heathen Dawn

Asimis, you as a Gnostic may be a freethinker, but the Literalists (Catholics) who suppressed your church were nothing of the sort. And Christian fundamentalists, carrying on their tradition, condemn freethought and scepticism in our day and age.

Yeah this is true and like I have pointed in other posts, I am against the fundamentalist.

trendkill · 07-02-2004, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

I see..well can you then tell me what promotes freethought?

And we're back to what Biff asked you in the first place:

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Where in the Bible does it tell you to think for yourself instead of following the orders of authority? Where does it consider your intelligence to be a good thing? Where does it advise you to question?

Those are things that promote freethought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAsimisI

I am not assuming you are one of them but I think you may have an idea.

I am not one of them, nor do I have an idea. I was just trying to get you to stop dodging Biff's three simple and relevant questions, which I quoted above.

Evoken · 07-02-2004, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trendkill

And we're back to what Biff asked you in the first place:
Those are things that promote freethought.

I am not one of them, nor do I have an idea. I was just trying to get you to stop dodging Biff's three simple and relevant questions, which I quoted above.

Look a couple of post up and see the examples jdlongmire posted.

07-02-2004, 02:59 AM	#15
Freethinking Senior Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 636	Quotations about Freedom of Thought He that cannot reason is a fool; he that will not is a bigot; he that dare not is a slave. - Sir William Drummond c. 1770-1828 [Modern rendition: They who...] I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789 It is a farce to call any being virtuous whose virtues do not result from the exercise of its own reason. -- Mary Wollstonecraft "Believe nothing, no matter where you heard it, or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reasons and your own common sense." -- Buddha The good, say the mystics of spirit, is God, a being whose only definition is that he is beyond man's power to conceive- a definition that invalidates man's consciousness and nullifies his concepts of existence...Man's mind, say the mystics of spirit, must be subordinated to the will of God... Man's standard of value, say the mystics of spirit, is the pleasure of God, whose standards are beyond man's power of comprehension and must be accepted on faith....The purpose of man's life...is to become an abject zombie who serves a purpose he does not know, for reasons he is not to question. [Ayn Rand, For the New Intellectual] Source: http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...uotesIndex.htm

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07-01-2004, 07:56 PM	#12
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	Amusing cross BB linkage Couple of thoughts I, as a Christian, use to guide my critical thinking... Matthew 22:37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' Matthew 10:16 I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. Romans 8:6 The mind of sinful man[ 8:6 Or mind set on the flesh] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; Romans 8:7 the sinful mind[ 8:7 Or the mind set on the flesh] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 1 Corinthians 14:15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. JD

07-02-2004, 12:21 AM	#13
Heathen Dawn Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 4,656	Asimis, you as a Gnostic may be a freethinker, but the Literalists (Catholics) who suppressed your church were nothing of the sort. And Christian fundamentalists, carrying on their tradition, condemn freethought and scepticism in our day and age.

07-02-2004, 02:19 AM	#14
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	IAsimisI I started reading this thread and wondering where it might lead. I read Biff the uncleans's responses and inwardly sighed because he was relating the identical experiences I have encountered for most of my life when attempting to have this kind of a discussion with someone who believes in the supernatural. Here are some examples of why I suspect that your world views are conditioned by your faith beliefs...and therefore limited in their freethinking, skeptical, reasoned, inquiry into the supernatural basis of those very faith beliefs. As for the skeptic, I agree that it is to question, doubt and test already established things. But must the skeptic turn into a cynic and never feel satisfied and say..have faith? There must be a point where the skeptic is "satisfied" and this varies from person to person, what satisfies you does not necessary has to satisfy me and vice. I agree that it is good and even necessary to test and question already established things but to arrive at a conclusion of those very things one questions and not to be always questioning testing the same thing without arriving at a conclusion like some sort of "proof" to show your skepticism. This is what I meant by "rebellious questioning", when you do that you are no longer looking for the truth but merely for an answer that satisfies your own predisposed view of what the truth should be. Like I said before I think it is good for people to question already established things, I don't view skepticism as a negative attribute but extreme skepticism like all extremes is not beneficial. There are many schools of "skepticism" just as there are many schools of "cynicism." http://www.reference.com/search?q=Skepticism http://www.reference.com/search?q=Cynicism Where are these "extreme/rebellious" schools of which you speak? Why "must" the skeptic/cynic be "satisfied?" Why must an inquiring and reasoning mind ever be satisfied? Doesn't that presuppose that absolute truths exist and can be known? The natural world readily admits that today's truths are as ephemeral as tomorrow's verified new facts. The supernatural world, in which faith is the prime ingredient, is subject to no constraints, limitations or verifications whatsoever. Think of it this way. In the supernatural world, morality or truth are whatever someone, or some make believe entity, claims that they are. To me, that is the most irrational of worlds...and those who have "faith" in such an irrational world have forfeited (or have had stolen/neutralized) their ability/capability to be completely honest with themselves. If one can not be intellectually honest with themselves, they can hardly be considered well rounded or accurately informed freethinkers in the arena of religion/faith beliefs...though they can remain more than capable in other areas. http://books.nap.edu/html/creationism/introduction.html (Extracts) Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as "true." Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow. Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses. (End extract) Cheers.

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