Toto

I found what I was looking for.

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Ted Weeden on XTalk "Luke Used Jesus-Ananias Story for Hearing"

Two Jesus lecture at Westar

gstafleu

Going by the passage in Josephus, JbA's repertoire seems to have been rather limited, so him somehow giving rise to all of Q seems not all that likely.

Gerard Stafleu

Niall Armstrong

So you reckon that if Mark used this story of Yeshua son of Ananias, it was merely a framework for the passion story, along with OT passages, Q, and traditions of the Mythical Jesus? It does seem to provide the bits of the story not found elsewhere.

If Mark needed other inspiration than the OT and Epistles, then that inspiration wouldn’t need to be a man named Jesus, it could be anyone and everyone. Actually, if Mark wished to write an allegory over the spiritual Jesus in an earthly setting, finding inspiration for that piece of fiction in an actual Jesus, who prophesied about Jerusalem’s fall, would seem a bit blasphemous, especially for a Jew. (Unless, of course, you claim that that is the final irony: Peter, James and John being the disciples of this failed Messiah, rather than apostles of a spiritual one…).
Mark’s story has to be fiction, because if he wished to write historically about YbA, he could have done so. In some senses it would be even more dramatic, considering the impending disaster of the Jewish War. But Mark needed a crucifixion, and wished to poke at the MJ apostles, and therefore had to create a Jesus crucified by Pilate.

Not that Weedon’s parallels have me convinced, yet.

But when we have here a second eschatological (and earthly) Jesus, is it not possible to imagine some connection to Q? (If it is indeed shown to be impossible to separate “Jesus said” from the various levels of Q.) There is little in the passage from Josephus to suggest such a thing, admittedly. But Mark’s version of YbA’s death is necessarily independent of Josephus, so he may have had his memories of Q from the same source. And Weedon does suggest that Matt & Luke had further inspiration from YbA’s death, which might have come as an oral tradition along with their copies of Q. Just thinking aloud, though.

Niall Armstrong

Indeed! :blush: Your most likely right.
But, as we all know, Josephus has it in for these uncouth wannabees. And "woe" is an important part of Q (though Jerusalem isn't....). Perhaps this is Burton Mack's Jesus, his Jerusalem adventure an embarassment back in Gallilee?

(And, btw, this is another instance of Josephus giving us a minor prophet in Jerusalem while [TF excepting] avoiding the gospel Jesus.)

Malachi151

By definition Q is not a part of Mark, so Q is out.

I think that Mark was a Pauline Christian either of Jewish background or well studied in the Jewish texts, who basically just used the Septuagint and Pauline ideas mixed with this own personal ideas to craft an allegorical story about the destruction of Judea.

Perhaps he heard about ben Ananias also and this influenced him too, or maybe that's just coincidence.

hatsoff

Perhaps Jesus ben-Ananias was in fact a mythical character born out of the misery of the Jewish war, roughly modelled after Jesus, and Josephus swallowed his story whole. But I don't see how it could have been the other way around.

Roland

Malachi -

I just wanted you to know that I bought your book on Jesus as a Hebrew myth and am enjoying it immensely. You provide much food for thought and you lay your ideas out in a very comprehensible and effective manner.

I'm only halfway through, but I feel I've learned a lot from it. I look forward to reading any of your future writings.

:wave:

neilgodfrey

This may be nothing but another passing shape in a cloud, but has anyone else passingly wondered if there might be some relationship to Mark's ending in the way the Jewish war ended at Masada? I sometimes wonder (without anything to hang the thoughts on) over this ending of the Jewish war:

1. about 3 years after the destruction of the Temple,

2. at dawn,

3. romans going to the stony outcrop expecting to find the living,

4. a couple of women came out from an underground stone cavern,

5. speaking of 2 women and 5 children

6. the women told them the story,

7. a noble and wellbred woman giving the most lucid account,

8. the romans did not believe them,

9. the romans cut their way through massive walls and stone pillars with their siege weapons into the place (palace) of the dead,

10. the romans enter the place (palace) of the dead,

11. they see the dead,

12. they are amazed,

13. at the courage that left the place dreadfully silent.



Comparing the complex of inversions and matches:


1. about 3 days after the destruction of the metaphorical temple,

2. at dawn,

3. women coming to the tomb hewn out of stone expecting to find the dead,

4. women left the tomb,

5. speaking of 3 women and 2 named children,

6. and told no-one,

7. a finely dressed man gave a detailed account,

8.

9. the women wondered how they would move the massive stone to get inside to the place of the dead,

10. the women enter the tomb,

11. they see the living,

12. they are alarmed,

13. their trembling fear compelled them to silence.

Mere shapes in the dark? Maybe. but....? :huh:

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Ben C Smith

Here are the relevant passages for comparison and contrast. Wars 7.9.2 §402-406:

Οι δε Ρωμαιοι μαχην ετι προσδοκωντες, υπο την εω διασκευασαμενοι και τας απο των χωματων εφοδους ταις επιβαθραις γεφυρωσαντες προσβολην εποιουντο. βλεποντες δ ουδενα των πολεμιων, αλλα δεινην πανταχοθεν ερημιαν και πυρ ενδον και σιωπην, απορως ειχον το γεγονος συμβαλειν, και τελος ως εις αφεσιν βολης ηλαλαξαν, ει τινα των ενδον προκαλεσαιντο. της δε βοης αισθησις γινεται τοις γυναιοις, κακ των υπονομων αναδυσαι το πραχθεν ως ειχε προς τους Ρωμαιους εμηνυον, παντα της ετερας ως ελεχθη τε και τινα τροπον επραχθη σαφως εκδιηγουμενης. ου μην ραδιως αυτη προσειχον τω μεγεθει του τολμηματος απιστουντες, επεχειρουν τε το πυρ σβεννυναι και ταχεως οδον δι αυτου τεμοντες των βασιλειων εντος εγενοντο. και τω πληθει των πεφονευμενων επιτυχοντες ουχ ως επι πολεμιοις ησθησαν, την δε γενναιοτητα του βουλευματος και την εν τοσουτοις ατρεπτον επι των εργων εθαυμασαν του θανατου καταφρονησιν.

Now for the Romans, they expected that they should be fought at daybreak, when, accordingly, they put on their armor, and laid bridges of planks upon their ladders from their banks, to make an assault upon the fortress, which they did; but they saw nobody as an enemy, but a terrible solitude on every side, with a fire within the place, as well as a perfect silence. So they were at a loss to guess at what had happened. At length they made a shout, as if it had been at a blow given by the battering ram, to try whether they could bring any one out that was within; the women heard this noise, and came out of their underground cavern and informed the Romans what had been done, as it was done; and the second of them clearly described all both what was said and what was done, and this manner of it; yet they did not easily give their attention to such a desperate undertaking, and did not believe it could be as they said; they also attempted to put the fire out, and, quickly cutting themselves a way through it, they came within the palace, and so met with the multitude of the slain, but could take no pleasure in the fact, though it were done to their enemies. Nor could they do other than wonder at the courage of their resolution, and the immovable contempt of death which so great a number of them had shown, when they went through with such an action as that was.

Mark 16.1-8:

Και διαγενομενου του σαββατου Μαρια η Μαγδαληνη και Μαρια η [του] Ιακωβου και Σαλωμη ηγορασαν αρωματα ινα ελθουσαι αλειψωσιν αυτον. και λιαν πρωι τη μια των σαββατων ερχονται επι το μνημειον ανατειλαντος του ηλιου. και ελεγον προς εαυτας· Τις αποκυλισει ημιν τον λιθον εκ της θυρας του μνημειου; και αναβλεψασαι θεωρουσιν οτι αποκεκυλισται ο λιθος, ην γαρ μεγας σφοδρα. και εισελθουσαι εις το μνημειον ειδον νεανισκον καθημενον εν τοις δεξιοις περιβεβλημενον στολην λευκην, και εξεθαμβηθησαν.
ο δε λεγει αυταις· Μη εκθαμβεισθε Ιησουν ζητειτε τον Ναζαρηνον τον εσταυρωμενον ηγερθη, ουκ εστιν ωδε ιδε ο τοπος οπου εθηκαν αυτον. αλλα υπαγετε ειπατε τοις μαθηταις αυτου και τω ∏ετρω οτι, ∏ροαγει υμας εις την Γαλιλαιαν εκει αυτον οψεσθε, καθως ειπεν υμιν. και εξελθουσαι εφυγον απο του μνημειου, ειχεν γαρ αυτας τρομος και εκστασις και ουδενι ουδεν ειπαν, εφοβουντο γαρ.

Now, when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. And they said among themselves: Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us? But, when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away, for it was very large. And upon entering the tomb they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. But he said to them: Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He is risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you into Galilee; there you will see him, as he said to you. So they went out quickly and fled from the tomb, for they trembled and were amazed. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

Ben.

neilgodfrey

looks like you have more ready access for conveying the text than i do at the moment - thannks. part of what I was looking at includes the earlier discussion of the building of the fortress of Masada -- the stress on the huge stones in its palace and the whole inaccessibility of it. and the singling out of one of the women as one of the highest class.