Freethought & Rationalism Archive

No Robots · 11-01-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Those who think to reach their conclusions rather than simply going with what they feel is right. I thought that was obvious.

I guess I was hoping for a few names, is all.

Toto · 11-01-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Stark's thesis is that Christianity spread among the diaspora Jews and the "god fearer" who were hangers on at the Jewish Temple, but had not fully committed to circumcision and following all of the Jewish Law.

I think that that is quite right, although I don't know why you say "Temple" instead of "synagogue."

Sorry. I meant synagogue. A slip of the keyboard. Due to distraction, or something, I forget what.

judge · 11-01-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

One of the most powerful arguments presented for the ‘power’ of Jesus is the faiths rapid spread, ‘despite all the drawbacks’.

There simply is no connection between the speed with which a belief spreads or the tenacity with which it remains and the truth of the belief.

.

How would one measure whether this was, or was not the case though?

Amaleq13 · 11-01-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

There simply is no connection between the speed with which a belief spreads or the tenacity with which it remains and the truth of the belief.

How would one measure whether this was, or was not the case though?

We know it is the case from all the plentiful examples of false beliefs which have spread quickly and/or refused to die out. The internet has become a breeding ground for them.

gurugeorge · 11-01-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

We know it is the case from all the plentiful examples of false beliefs which have spread quickly and/or refused to die out.

The rise of a belief in a historical Jesus between 70 - 150 CE and its perpetuation for 2,000 years being itself a possible case in point :angel:

jules? · 11-02-2007, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

not among the non-jews at least

Oh, yeah, well, sure, if ya leave the Jews out of it, then it's a complete fucking mystery, isn't it? I mean, then anything's possible, right?

Sure, I get your point, and yes with the destruction of the Temple, the failed revolt and the complete humiliation of the Jews it makes sense that the 'new' apocalyptic message was making broad inroads into the romanised Jewish community. But... Paul's mission is going out to plenty of non-jews, Galatians were a bunch of Celts who colonised the area centuries before hand. What makes the early christian 'church' in all its guises is the spread among non-Jews, why did they find the message of doom and salvation so desirable?

Toto · 11-02-2007, 01:28 AM

How do you know that Paul's mission to the gentiles got anywhere?

It seems that gentiles found the Jewish religion attractive. Those who were attracted to Judaism but didn't want to bother with circumcision probably ended up Christian.

The content of the message was secondary to the social, economic, and community aspects of Christianity, I suspect.

You are wasting your time discussing this if you do not read Stark. He discusses all of your concerns.

jules? · 11-02-2007, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules?

The great Christian proof

One of the most powerful arguments presented for the ‘power’ of Jesus is the faiths rapid spread, ‘despite all the drawbacks’. And in some respects they have a point. Dismissing the divinity or the resurrection as the reason for the growth still leaves a question poorly answered.

Perhaps you have not heard about the influence of Constantine the Great on Christianity and how the laws governing heretics and Jews were enacted or enforced to be harshly disciminatory to non-Christians

Excerpts from the Ecumenical Council of 381, "It is unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different faith as a rival to that established by the holy Father assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicaea."

And from a law of Justinian from 531, "..... we therefore ordain that no heretic, not even they who cherish the Jewish superstition, may offer testimony against orthodox Christians...."

Or from a law of Theodosius, 439, '.........To these things we add that he who misleads a slave or a free man against his will or by punishable advice, from the service of the Christian religion to that of an abdominable sect and ritual, is to be punished by loss of property and life...."

Christianity's success is directly related to the Roman Empire.

For sure it was political expediance to bring christianity into the fold of the empire in 4th century but the only reason this happened was because of the growth that had occured in previous centuries, it was worth it. More importantly the lack of an End-Time inconjunction with all those rich widows and poor who had handed over their wealth in return for salvation had made the 'church' off message with personal salvation and wealthy.

In a way the success of christianity was directly related to how it gained its power/wealth. Other religions required expensive sacrifise but the initial growth simply required a member to hold their wealth in common and wait for them to die. The ultimate credit card, share now and cash in later.

But back to your point, yes I agree but the growth and the faith itself were quite different a couple of centuries earlier and it still gathered non jewish converts.

jules? · 11-02-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

How do you know that Paul's mission to the gentiles got anywhere?

It seems that gentiles found the Jewish religion attractive. Those who were attracted to Judaism but didn't want to bother with circumcision probably ended up Christian.

The content of the message was secondary to the social, economic, and community aspects of Christianity, I suspect.

You are wasting your time discussing this if you do not read Stark. He discusses all of your concerns.

I will read stark, and I don't know if pauls mission was a success except his letters survive indicating something. And I agree that the social xtian 'club' had its attractions as did judaism 'lite' all the great taste but no nob mutilation and the better taste of a bacon sandwich. but....seeing that the basic core message was 'the end is nigh' why would people not accept this if there was not some deep undercurrent of fear that it was all going to kick off 'like a thief in the night'? When the knockers come to my door, and I get loads, they get invited in and i ask what drew them to their doom laden cause. Often they will tell me that a personal crisis led them to their faith and they will appeal to my concerns about world events and social ills as a sign. More earthquakes they say, bollocks and i point out that statistics disprove it and yes it appears to be worse, more war, and rumours, big on rumours,- I just wonder if the message that is spread now that appeals to fear is the one that spread then.

Huon · 11-02-2007, 04:30 AM

There is almost the same discussion in another recent thread :
Jesus Emerged Victorious, Why? :
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=225678

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11-02-2007, 01:28 AM	#27
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	How do you know that Paul's mission to the gentiles got anywhere? It seems that gentiles found the Jewish religion attractive. Those who were attracted to Judaism but didn't want to bother with circumcision probably ended up Christian. The content of the message was secondary to the social, economic, and community aspects of Christianity, I suspect. You are wasting your time discussing this if you do not read Stark. He discusses all of your concerns.

11-02-2007, 04:30 AM	#30
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	There is almost the same discussion in another recent thread : Jesus Emerged Victorious, Why? : http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=225678

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