Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kapyong · 01-06-2011, 12:06 AM

Gday all,

Here is my latest installment dealing with the Heavenly Jerusalem, as it applies to Paul and his views.

The New Jerusalem
(Or the Heavenly Jerusalem or Jerusalem Above.)

We first see mention of a New Jerusalem in Ezekiel 40-48.
The New Jerusalem is discussed by Christians from 1st C. on -

Quote:

Revelation 3:12 :
I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

As well as - 2nd C. The Epistle of the Apostles, The Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Irenaeus; 3rd C. Hippolytus and Tertullian; and 4th C. Augustine, Cyril Jerusalem, Eusebius, Gennadius, Gregory Nazianzen, Jerome and Rufinus.

The terms "Heavenly Jerusalem" (or "Jerusalem Above") as well as "Mount Zion", and "the City of the Living God" are also used -

Quote:

Hebrews 12:18 :
For you have not come to a mountain that might be touched
...
But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,

Many other authors from 2nd C. on too -

Quote:

Clement of Alexandria, Instructor, 2, 2nd C. :
We have heard, too, that the Jerusalem Above is walled with sacred stones; and we allow that the twelve gates of the celestial city, by being made like precious stones, indicate the transcendent grace of the apostolic voice.

So do - 2nd C. 2 Baruch, 4 Ezra, Irenaeus; 3rd C. Hippolytus, Origen, Tertullian; and 4th C. Ambrose, Athanasius, Augustine, Eusebius, Gennadius, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Rufinus. Another popular subject.

The other term 'City of the Living God' can be found in : Hebrews, Philo On Dreams, Origen on John and Matthew, 4th C. Philocalia, and Eusebius.

Mount Zion

Mount Zion frequently refers to the physical location, but from 1st C. or so sometimes it means a Heavenly place - e.g. Hebrews :

Quote:

12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the Heavenly Jerusalem,

4 Ezra has a Mount Zion in Heaven where the Son of God crowns souls who have put off bodies :

Quote:

I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great multitude, which I could not number, and they all were praising the Lord with songs. [43] In their midst was a young man of great stature, taller than any of the others, and on the head of each of them he placed a crown, but he was more exalted than they. And I was held spellbound. [44] Then I asked an angel, "Who are these, my lord?" [45] He answered and said to me, "These are they who have put off mortal clothing and have put on the immortal, and they have confessed the name of God; now they are being crowned, and receive palms." [46] Then I said to the angel, "Who is that young man who places crowns on them and puts palms in their hands?" [47] He answered and said to me, "He is the Son of God, whom they confessed in the world."

Revelation has a Mt Zion in heaven with the Lamb of God :

Quote:

I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. 14:2 I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder.

(But Paul seems to use Zion in the common literal way to mean Jerusalem.)

The Heavenly Jerusalem is Our Mother

Galatians 4 has Jerusalem Above as our mother :

Quote:

Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother

Hippolytus' The Banquet of the Ten Virgins early 3rd C. has the heavenly woman = our mother = Mount Zion and more :

Quote:

The woman who appeared in heaven clothed with the sun, and crowned with twelve stars, and having the moon for her footstool, and being with child, and travailing in birth, is certainly, according to the accurate interpretation, our mother, O virgins, being a power by herself distinct from her children; whom the prophets, according to the aspect of their subjects, have called sometimes Jerusalem, sometimes a Bride, sometimes Mount Zion, and sometimes the Temple and Tabernacle of God.

Tertullian's Marcion Book 5 early 3rd C. has the the other world, the world to come as the "mother of us all" :

Quote:

for these are the two covenants," or the two exhibitions (of the divine plans), as we have found the word interpreted," the one from the Mount Sinai," in relation to the synagogue of the Jews, according to the law, "which gendereth to bondage" -- "the other gendereth" (to liberty, being raised) above all principality, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but in that [world] which is to come, "which is the mother of us all,"

Paul's "mother of us all" is mentioned by : 3rd C. Origen, 4th C. Augustine, Cyril of Jerusalem, Eusebius, Gennadius, Rufinus.

Heavenly Models or patterns of Earthly Things

There are patterns or models of earthly things in heaven, especially Jerusalem Above which is a pattern of the earthly Jerusalem.

Vision of Isaiah, 1st or 2nd C. :

Quote:

10. And as above so on the earth also; for the likeness of that which is in the firmament is here on the earth.

Irenaeus, Heresies 5, 2nd C. :

Quote:

But in the times of the kingdom, the earth has been called again by Christ [to its pristine condition], and Jerusalem rebuilt after the pattern of the Jerusalem Above

Irenaeus, Heresies 4, 2nd C. :

Quote:

Moreover, He instructed the people, who were prone to turn to idols, instructing them by repeated appeals to persevere and to serve God, calling them to the things of primary importance by means of those which were secondary; that is, to things that are real, by means of those that are typical; and by things temporal, to eternal; and by the carnal to the spiritual; and by the earthly to the heavenly; as was also said to Moses, "Thou shalt make all things after the pattern of those things which thou sawest in the mount."

Eusebius, History, 4th C. :

Quote:

But the region Above the Heavens, with the models of earthly things which are there, and the so-called Jerusalem Above, and the heavenly Mount of Zion, and the supramundane City of the Living God, in which innumerable choirs of angels and the Church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven, praise their Maker and the Supreme Ruler of the universe with hymns of praise unutterable and incomprehensible to us,--who that is mortal is able worthily to celebrate this?

The Temple on Earth is an image of what is in heaven :

Quote:

Eusebius, History, 4th C. :
Such is the great temple which the great Creator of the universe, the Word, has built throughout the entire world, making it an intellectual image upon earth of those things which lie above the vault of heaven, so that throughout the whole creation, including rational beings on earth, his Father might be honored and adored.

Jesus the High Priest passes on immaterial sacrifices in the Jerusalem above :

Quote:

Eusebius, History, 4th C. :
Standing at the right of it, Jesus himself, the great High Priest of the universe, the Only Begotten of God, receives with bright eye and extended hand the sweet incense from all, and the bloodless and immaterial sacrifices offered in their prayers, and bears them to the heavenly Father and God of the universe.

Conclusion :
Paul, and some other Christians of his time believed :

* in a Heavenly Jerusalem, also known as

New Jerusalem,
or Jerusalem Above,
or sometimes Mount Zion,
or the City of the Living God;

* the Jerusalem Above is 'our mother'

From shortly after Paul, we also see these beliefs made explicit :
* the Son of God performs spiritual work in heaven
* that earthly things, especially Jerusalem, follow a pattern in heaven

Kapyong

judge · 01-06-2011, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday all,

Here is my latest installment dealing with the Heavenly Jerusalem, as it applies to Paul and his views......

Quote:

.Eusebius, History, 4th C.

What does Eusebius have to do with Paul? Eusebius is long time afterwards.

Kapyong · 01-06-2011, 05:45 PM

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

What does Eusebius have to do with Paul? Eusebius is long time afterwards.

Yup.
But I have been careful not to attribute views from later times to Paul.

What I have done is add quotes from later writers if it helps confirm or explain earlier claims.

In my latest post, the belief the Son does spiritual work in heaven is first hinted at in 1st C. and then made more explicit in next few centuries.

K.

mountainman · 01-31-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

What does Eusebius have to do with Paul? Eusebius is long time afterwards.

Yup.
But I have been careful not to attribute views from later times to Paul.

Especially considering we have at the moment no certaintly whatsoever in regard to the century in which "Paul" wrote.

Quote:

What I have done is add quotes from later writers if it helps confirm or explain earlier claims.

You might like to add Emperor Julian's references from The Caesars aka Kronia aka Symposium:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Emperor Julian on KRONIA

"It is the season of the Kronia, [1] during which the
god allows us to make merry. But, my dear friend,
as I have no talent for amusing or entertaining I
must methinks take pains not to talk mere nonsense."

"But, Caesar, can there be anyone so dull and
stupid as to take pains over jesting? I always
thought that such pleasantries were a relaxation of
the mind and a relief from pains and cares."

"Yes, and no doubt your view is correct, but that
is not how the matter strikes me. For by nature I
have no turn for raillery, or parody, or raising a
laugh. But since I must obey the ordinance of the
god of the festival, should you like me to relate to
you by way of entertainment a myth in which there
is perhaps much worth hearing?"

"I shall listen with great pleasure, for I too am not
one to despise myths, and I am far from rejecting
those that have the right tendency; indeed I am of
the same opinion as you and your admired, or rather
the universally admired, Plato. He also often
conveyed a serious lesson in his myths."

"By Zeus, that is true indeed!"

"But what is your myth and of what type?"

"Not one of those old-fashioned ones such as
Aesop [2] wrote. But whether you should call mine an
invention of Hermes - for it was from him I learned
what I am going to tell you - or whether it is really
true or a mixture of truth and fiction, the upshot,
as the saying is, will decide."

"This is indeed a fine preface that you have
composed, just the thing for a myth, not to say an
ovation! But now pray tell me the tale itself,
whatever its type may be."

"Attend"

At the festival of the Kronia Romulus gave a
banquet, and invited not only all the gods, but the
Emperors as well.

For the gods couches had been
prepared on high, at the very apex, so to speak, of
the sky, [3] on "Olympus where they say is the seat of
the gods, unshaken forever". [4]

For we are told
that after Heracles, Quirinus also ascended thither,
since we must give Romulus the name of Quirinus
in obedience to the divine will. [5] For the gods
then the banquet had been made ready there.

But just below the moon in the upper air he had
decided to entertain the Emperors. The lightness
of the bodies with which they had been invested,
and also the revolution of the moon sustained
them. Four couches were there made ready
for the superior gods.

etc
etc
etc

Works his way chronologically through dozens of Roman Emperors
from Julius Caesar through to Constantine. Jesus appears.

Constantine "found" Jesus.

etc
etc

aa5874 · 01-31-2011, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

Gday,

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

What does Eusebius have to do with Paul? Eusebius is long time afterwards.

Yup.
But I have been careful not to attribute views from later times to Paul.

What I have done is add quotes from later writers if it helps confirm or explain earlier claims.

In my latest post, the belief the Son does spiritual work in heaven is first hinted at in 1st C. and then made more explicit in next few centuries.

K.

Your theory that Jesus operated in heaven is contrary to the evidence and suggests that "Paul" was an HERETIC.

"Paul" was NOT mentioned as a Heretic in any Church writing.

The NT Canon are a compilation of books or writings that are considered NON-HERETICAL.

Secondly, there is the NICENE CREED which gives an indication of what people believed in the 4th century.

Quote:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God.

Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures.

And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."...

In the NT, Jesus was CRUCIFIED on earth during the reign of Tiberius when Pilate was governor of Judea, was buried in a tomb, was RAISED from the dead and appeared to his disciples when they were hiding in a house.

The Jesus story or the Pauline writings cannot be altered or re-written now.

mountainman · 01-31-2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Secondly, there is the NICENE CREED which gives an indication of what people believed in the 4th century.

Quote:

We believe

..[trimmed]...

This is not the earliest Nicaean Creed aa5874.
The earliest Nicaean Creeds have an anathema clause.
The anathema clause was inserted on account of the words of Arius.
I will refrain from citing these five Arian sophisms of 325 CE.

But there is one thing that we can be reasonable sure about.
And that is that many people of the 4th century chose to follow Arius.

aa5874 · 01-31-2011, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Secondly, there is the NICENE CREED which gives an indication of what people believed in the 4th century.

This is not the earliest Nicaean Creed aa5874.
The earliest Nicaean Creeds have an anathema clause.
The anathema clause was inserted on account of the words of Arius.
I will refrain from citing these five Arian sophisms of 325 CE.

But there is one thing that we can be reasonable sure about.
And that is that many people of the 4th century chose to follow Arius.

I am aware that there is a 325 Nicene Creed.

mountainman · 11-22-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kapyong

The Christian Spheres of Existence in Paul's time

So, putting this all together, I conclude Paul probably saw the universe as being somewhat as follows :

Once again, we see this has much similarity to the Greek view :

The main difference is that the various planetary spheres and the stars are all combined in the (solid) Firmament. The Greeks tended to multiply spheres, whereas the Christians tended to multiply heavens.

Where does the sun fit in to the Greek view?

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