JonA

When I ask 'What was on Mark's mind?', I am merely wondering if we can figure out to which, if any in particular, insurrection he is referring.

Forgive me for still not being convinced. I do not know the Greek, but the construction still seems odd to me as worded (to use a definite article to refer to something that was only previously implied appears strange—thought if it is not so in Greek, I can understand).

So I have another question: in the Greek, is the phrase 'who had in the riot/insurrection committed murder' singular or plural?

Jon

Diogenes the Cynic

Singular.

DCHindley

No, it's plural.

Mark 15:7 (Nestle-Aland) ἦν (was) δὲ (but) ὁ (the-one) λεγόμενος (called) Βαραββᾶς (Barabbas) μετὰ (with) τῶν (the-pl) στασιαστῶν (rebels-pl) δεδεμένος (being bound-sg) οἵτινες (who-pl) ἐν (in) τῇ (the-sg) στάσει (insurrection-sg) φόνον (a murder-sg) πεποιήκεισαν (they had caused).

The Byzantine text type has συστασιαστῶν (fellow rebels-pl) rather than στασιαστῶν (rebels-pl).

DCH

DCHindley

avi,

Why does that source you use call the text that everyone else calls "Westcott & Hort" by the name "Hort & Westcott"?

The New Testament in the original Greek / the text revised by Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort, New York, Harper and Bros., 1881. Them pesky librarians keep saying the unified title is "Bible. N.T. Greek. Westcott-Hort. 1881" or "Bible. N.T. Greek. Westcott & Hort. 1881". I'll have to let them know that they must be wrong!

DCH

Diogenes the Cynic

Yep, my mistake.

JonA

Well! Very interesting. Thank you for the detailed translation.

I think this makes my original question still valid, then. And after seeing that this phrase is plural, I am not at all satisfied with Diogenes the Cynic's solution to the problem.

I just cannot see how the article could possibly be referring back to something mentioned in the sentence when nothing was ever mentioned in the sentence. This would certainly never be acceptable in English. I may still be missing something, though: Are there any other examples of such constructions in Greek?

Jon

Diogenes the Cynic

Something WAS mentioned in the first sentence - people he had rioted with.

dockeen

Tangent:

I was doing some curiosity goggling about to see what the church denizens of the
web were up to today in terms of the "tradition" which does not appear to be
documented anywhere. It looks like they are still claiming, alternatively that it
was a Roman or a Jewish tradition. And of course the voices saying it was nobodies
tradition.

Is that what use guys/gals hear/know these days?

JonA

Precisely! People were mentioned; but it is not 'people' to which the definite article refers.

The reference seems out of place if meant to refer to the particular insurrection started by the people with whom Barabbas was imprisoned.

Jon

avi

In academia, the first author can be the more significant contributor, or, typically, the one better known.

I am not certain, but I believe that while both brilliant men worked at Cambridge, only Westcott held a senior post in the Church of England. Could be in error on that point.

Hort wrote the introduction to their joint effort, which is the magnificent source I rely upon, as cited above.

From my own, non Christian perspective, Hort's academic works are of more interest to me, than Westcott's more religion oriented writings.

Pick a couple of folks, any pair will do, from our forum, and juxtapose the two, as you wish, either in complementary or in critical fashion, and you will see, that it is not easy to decide which one to make first in the pairing of the two names.

Hort was born after Westcott, and died before him, if that is a useful metric.... Alliteration also plays a small role, it is easier on the ears, in my opinion, to listen to Hyyyy & Wxxxx, rather than to Wxxx and Hyyy.....

In contemporary times, our most famous pair, I suppose, is Metzger and Ehrman.

Or, should I write, Ehrman and Metzger? Strictly from an acoustic perspective, I prefer M & E, rather than E & M, but, doesn't that contradict my earlier preference of H & W, rather than W & H??

Hmmm..

Some say potatoe, some say tomato.

haha. must be lunchtime

avi