KingLouie

I'm with you on that, homie. And it's the best answer yet to the question this thread poses.

From the Jungles of Someone Else's Words,

Kang Louie

breezanne

There is one diverse group of people who typically have a remarkably diminished fear of their own death ... atheists and theists alike who have had near-death-experiences.

sullster

Catholic Convert,

Be careful, your god created that "filthy coat". By your own religion's tenets, you are blaspheming your god's personal creation. The "corruptible body" was a creation of your god your bible says.

Back to the topic. I sometimes think that believers actually confuse the promise of life after death with a hope of eternal physical life.

A lot of the grief may be explained by the theistic believers feeling a sense of shock that their loved one has actually died, even though they are "saved" or believers. Sometimes relgious types seem to think that death can only happen to the evil non-believers and when they are confronted with the actual death of one of their own, they are confused and terrified.

Some of the fundy sects embody the point I am making here. The Rapturists and other type sects believe in bodily going to their heaven. Their eternal life is a synthesis of physical life and other-worldly life.

Paradox

According to the gospel of John, even Jesus wept when Lazarus was reported to have died. Even from a Christian perspective it isn't wrong to experience and show grief and pain at the death of a loved one.
People, in their physical presence, have a natural impact on the world around them and if that is removed its bound to have an affect on others - especially if they had close relationships.

Also, a good proportion of people die from some form of illness, and as such, a true fundamentalist Christian would see this as a defeat - no Christian should die sick!!

And lastly, the pain over the death of a loved one can, in some cases, be even worse for the believer. Many believers have close friends or family members that don't believe, and if they die, the believer is forced to accept the distinct probability that that person is suffering eternally! In cases like that I imagine the believer would be grieving terribly over that loss.

sullster

That was a good analysis of the mentality of christian grief. Even their founding member was a skeptic about eternal life. Though, my take on the Lazarus story is that it was all a fake, and the con-man jesus was crying just to set up the coming con of "raising Larzarus" after the drugs wore off.

You make a good point about fundys. They are so obnoxious when they think they are immune from naturally occurring diseases such as cancer or other such illnesses because they are, "born again".

Your last point about believer grief being expressed over the passing of a non-believer friend,( who is in hell courtesy of the loving god), is really another affront to the eternal life belief. If the grief is motivated by a total belief in hell being suffered by the friend, then why does the same beleiver show grief over the death of a believer friend? IF the only acceptable theistic grief is that which is shown over the death of a hell bound dead friend. To grieve over the passing of a fellower believer is thus doubly damning. First, you may be showing your fear that he is in hell and second, you are showing dis-belief in eternal life. Heretic!!!!!!!!!!!!! Burn the heretic!!!!!!!!

Paradox

Of course, there are a good many Christians who don't accept that view (because they have no choice but to water down their belief system). The ones that do (and I was one of those) act obnoxiously because they have to push themselves to further limits to justify their faith. Whoever it was that dies of whatever sickness, you can bet they'd been praying and believing for the sickness to be overcome and when it doesn't happen (usually the case), they are faced with the unnerving evidence that their faith is not a reality. That in turn causes doubt for their own security and hence they dig their heels in even harder, blindly accepting that the Word of God is greater than whatever the circumstances tell them! Very sad state of affairs.

sullster

Paradox,

Thanks again for your insights. Religion is such an irrational mess. The believers feel that they are chosen for eternal life by their sky daddy and yet they still want to be free from disease and the nasty aspects of physical death. Isn't the eternal life enough?

All these considerations make me realize what an unending burden it is being a believer. Just when you think all is well, the bar is raised and you have to grovel before the sky daddy again and worry that you are not going to the eternal happy place.

No wonder they cry and get depressed. A lifetime spent believing all that stuff takes a toll on one's mind.

mirage

I understand what you say and that death is sad no matter what.

But I can't agree that the sadness would be greater if you don't believe in eternal life. I know dozens of atheists that have lost people, including myself. It's just the same.

I've seen lots of believers and unbelievers at the exact moment they find out their loved one is dead or going to die, and I've seen some aftermath. I can't detect any difference in favour of believers, and possibly some against, although it is very difficult to separate emotions from culturally determined expression of them.

I just can't see that people really believe it. It isn't real to them. It isn't like the knowledge the sun will come up. There is deeply repressed doubt there in most people. I can't believe that at least many believers don't just think "this sounds a little like a wish fulfilling fairy tale. Isn't it a little too good to be true?"

Maybe I'm just projecting in the same way as theists that can't believe atheists really don't believe in god.

But they sure put on a good act of someone who thinks they will never see their loved one again. It's the same as bibles. I could never believe as a child how ignorant most people are about the bible and theology. I mean if it's true, it has to be the most important thing ever by far. Everything else just pales by comparison. And yet hardly anyone reads the damn thing outside fundy circles. At least fundies take it seriously and don't piss about. If I thought it was true, I'd have read the damn thing twenty times back to back! But what do we see? We see people that act very much like atheists except for the occasional "God" exclamation and a couple of hours a week on Sundays. Very strange.

Megusic

This is a good topic that I've been thinking about myself a great deal lately.

I think mourning is a largely selfish act. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - but I think death does usually make us sad because we will miss a person.

I do think some of mourning is sympathetic. Even though I know it makes no actual difference to the person who died once they are gone, I might feel as though they missed out on life.

For instance, when a friend of mine died in high school, I was shocked saddened. I was sad that he wasn't in my own life anymore, but I also thought of all the things my friend didn't get a chance to do - he was a really smart guy, and he could have done great things with his life, but never got the opportunity. On the other hand, when my grandfather died a couple ideas ago, I wasn't as grief-stricken - he was in real bad shape, and had lived a long life. My sadness over his death was more selfish on my part because I would have liked to have gotten to know him better and spent more time with him.

I would agree that religious folk seem to get stuck here, and as the OP suggested, may not have such a strong belief in afterlife as they let on. Rational thought would say, what's 40 years without him here, when I get eternity with him?? But none of us seemed to be built that way. I think, even if it is deep down, all people really know they will never see the dearly diceased again. Of course, that's my opinion.

Megusic

In regards to this, by neorask:

Are you saying that death itself, or the process of death, is the punishment? How is it punishment if you are in paradise? What is the brief part? Why would a god only punish sin briefly then let you play forever? You were bad, but you accept Jesus as your savior so it's all a-ok?