Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 12-13-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The writer clearly says that he is basing the story on the book of Jashar. If the story turns out to be false (and the author sort of implies that it is outrageous and/or dubious) the problem is with the book of Jashar.

This passage is interesting, but isn't a real serious example of a terrible error.

Even if it's granted arguendo that the author of Joshua used Jashar as a source, as opposed to simply saying that Jashar also records the event, what difference does this make, since the author of Joshua assumed his source's accuracy?

Quote:

12 On the day when Yahweh gave the Amorites over to the Israelites, Joshua spoke to Yahweh; and he said in the sight of Israel,
‘Sun, stand still at Gibeon,
and Moon, in the valley of Aijalon.’
13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped,
until the nation took vengeance on their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in mid-heaven, and did not hurry to set for about a whole day. 14There has been no day like it before or since, when Yahweh heeded a human voice; for Yahweh fought for Israel.

Also, see this post from the thread I mentioned above, which shows that Jewish interpreters from Sirach and later thought that the text communicates an actual stopping of the sun.

Finally, compare Joshua 10's citation of Jashar to 2 Samuel 1:18. The mention that an event is also recorded in Jashar doesn't change its putative veracity.

Quote:

2 Samuel 1:18
17 David intoned this lamentation over Saul and his son Jonathan. 18(He ordered that The Song of the Bow be taught to the people of Judah; it is written in the Book of Jashar.) He said:
19 Your glory, O Israel, lies slain upon your high places!
How the mighty have fallen!
20 Tell it not in Gath...

PhilosopherJay · 12-13-2010, 11:50 AM

Hi All,

I think we find an analogous situation in the movie "Superman" (Donner, 1978). Superman causes the Earth to spin backwards, thus causing time to reverse and saving the lives of his friends and averting catastrophe.

Like the Yaweh-Sun standing still miracle, the Superman reverse orbit-time reversal miracle does not seem to accurately reflect the known scientific facts.

This may also be analogous to the cartoon The Heckling Hare (Avery, 1941) where Bugs Bunny and Willoughby the dog fall off a cliff and manage to put on the breaks and make a soft landing. Bugs then says, ""N'yah, fooled you, didn't we?"

Possibly the Cartoon Laws of Physics applied in the Joshua story. There seems to be some correlation to:

Quote:

Cartoon Law I
Any body suspended in space will remain in space until made aware of its situation.

Daffy Duck steps off a cliff, expecting further pastureland. He loiters in midair, soliloquizing flippantly, until he chances to look down. At this point, the familiar principle of 32 feet per second per second takes over.

and

Quote:

Cartoon Law V
All principles of gravity are negated by fear.

Psychic forces are sufficient in most bodies for a shock to propel them directly away from the earth's surface. A spooky noise or an adversary's signature sound will induce motion upward, usually to the cradle of a chandelier, a treetop, or the crest of a flagpole. The feet of a character who is running or the wheels of a speeding auto need never touch the ground, especially when in flight.

As in fantasy movies and animation, we also find that the normal laws of modern physics were not always obeyed in ancient mythology. See the story of Phaeton and the Chariot of the Sun.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Apologetics Press: Did the Sun Stand Still?

Jaybees · 12-13-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

If one wishes to understand the bible, a necessary first step should be to read it, in this case, why not quote the relevent passages?

Quote:

Joshua 10:12 - Then Joshua spoke to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand still on Gibeon! You, moon, stop in the valley of Aijalon!"

Terrific! By far the best explanation When Joshus told the sun and moon to stop moving, he really wasn't telling the sun and moon to stop moving.

Thank you much for this explanation.

Jaybees · 12-13-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

What's the latest explanation given by believers in biblical innerancy for Joshua's stopping of the sun?

See this thread.

Beautiful!

That thread answers my question many times over.

Thank you.

Steve Weiss · 12-14-2010, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

What's the latest explanation given by believers in biblical innerancy for Joshua's stopping of the sun?

Not only did Joshua allegedly stop the sun from moving for a day, he also caused the Jordan River to part for his tribe. Guess he learned that trick from Moses. Are the miracles of the OT any more fantastic than those in the NT? How about Immaculate Conception and transubstantiation? Defying gravity (walking on water) and resurrection are neat tricks as well. The whole fiction of the bible requires suspension of one's critical faculties to the extent that one loses any contact with reality in the process. Even more honest contemporary fiction is more believable than the bible and doesn't hold itself out as inerrent truth.

semiopen · 12-14-2010, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

If one wishes to understand the bible, a necessary first step should be to read it, in this case, why not quote the relevent passages?

Terrific! By far the best explanation When Joshus told the sun and moon to stop moving, he really wasn't telling the sun and moon to stop moving.

Thank you much for this explanation.

This forum is not really intended to make fun of inerrantists. I made the suggestion that perhaps one should read the bible before commenting on how foolishly some people interpret it.

Your sarcasm is not very attractive, but I'm sure you're a fine person otherwise.

semiopen · 12-14-2010, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

The writer clearly says that he is basing the story on the book of Jashar. If the story turns out to be false (and the author sort of implies that it is outrageous and/or dubious) the problem is with the book of Jashar.

This passage is interesting, but isn't a real serious example of a terrible error.

Even if it's granted arguendo that the author of Joshua used Jashar as a source, as opposed to simply saying that Jashar also records the event, what difference does this make, since the author of Joshua assumed his source's accuracy?

Also, see this post from the thread I mentioned above, which shows that Jewish interpreters from Sirach and later thought that the text communicates an actual stopping of the sun.

Finally, compare Joshua 10's citation of Jashar to 2 Samuel 1:18. The mention that an event is also recorded in Jashar doesn't change its putative veracity.

Quote:

2 Samuel 1:18
17 David intoned this lamentation over Saul and his son Jonathan. 18(He ordered that The Song of the Bow be taught to the people of Judah; it is written in the Book of Jashar.) He said:
19 Your glory, O Israel, lies slain upon your high places!
How the mighty have fallen!
20 Tell it not in Gath...

There is a question whether the people that wrote the bible believed what they were writing. However my statement,

Quote:

(and the author sort of implies that it is outrageous and/or dubious)

was not very well worded.

The actual existence of a Sefer haYashar is quite unlikely during this period.

Perhaps a better way of expressing myself would have been to note the overall origin and structure of the

Book_of_Joshua.

Joshua was probably written after the exile, which is a considerable amount of time from the actual supposed events.

Mark Brettler discusses the obvious contradictions in Joshua:

Quote:

As a glance at any Bible atlas indicates, this 'land that remains' is substantial! In other words, this passage directly conflicts with the account given a few verses earlier.13

What are we to make of the fact that this book presents more than one idea concerning basic notions such as how the land was conquered and what its boundaries are? Like many other scholars, I conclude from its internal contradic- tions that the Book of Joshua is not the work of a single author. Rather, it is a com- posite book. Either it has gone through several stages of editing and redaction, or it was written by an author who (for some unknown reason) incorporated earlier sources-ven though they did not agree with the author's point-or both. 1

1 Marc Zvi Brettler, How to Read the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk) (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 2005) 99, Questia, Web, 14 Dec. 2010.

Here he discusses the word Kol, even though Kol is one thing the conquest was not.

Quote:

The Book of Joshua repeatedly paints a picture of a complete conquest of the entire land. This comes through clearly in two summary texts, one located in the middle of the book, and one toward the end. Each uses the word kol ('73, 'all, every, whole') repeatedly to highlight the theme that all was conquered accord- ing to all that God had promised. 1

Therefore I think that my assertion that the author did not really believe that the sun stood still is not as unlikely as you imply.

Earl IV · 12-14-2010, 09:25 AM

The sun stood still?

Doesn't it always stand still (relative to the ORBITING planets)?

:constern01:

Minimalist · 12-14-2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Archaeologist Bill Dever, for example, has heavily emphasised the non-historicity of Joshua's capture of the city (Jericho): ...if you want a miracle, here's your miracle: Joshua destroyed a city that wasn't even there.

http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Battle_of_Jericho

funinspace · 12-14-2010, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybees

What's the latest explanation given by believers in biblical innerancy for Joshua's stopping of the sun?

I can't seem to find the original link now, but the best explanation I have ever read came from a poster that used to participate here (jdlongmire). I can't find his original comments from prior to 2005...archive search fails to follow link back. Basically, he liked the notion of a bubble of time around Canaan. This would resolve the many issues around the reality that no other civilization ever noticed such a day. Of course it is completely unverifiable, kind of like the time traveler of Terminator not being able to show evidence. He admitted there is no evidence to support it, but it would at least be more consistent than some of the other rather strained explanations. Kind of cool in a SciFi sense...

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12-14-2010, 09:25 AM	#18
Earl IV Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Somewhere between lost and hopelessly lost Posts: 6,336	The sun stood still? Doesn't it always stand still (relative to the ORBITING planets)? :constern01:

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