Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 08-07-2007, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackal5096

This seems to be saying that Eusibius also created Irenaeus, Clement, Origen, Justin Martyr, Tertullian and a host of others, along with all their various correspondences. Frankly, I think that author has his tin-foil hat on a little too tight.

The author thinks that the Eusebian truth paradigm
has persisted long enough to be questioned and
objectively tested. Thus the formalism of the
Eusebian fiction postulate.

Quote:

(Pete - since this article is on "www.mountainman.com", would that imply some connection between you and it?)

Yes, it would. I put that site together in 1994.
It is sub-titled "publications of peace and of great souls"
and is an organic collection of my research.

Best wishes,

Pete Brown

aa5874 · 08-07-2007, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackal5096

If the four gospels were 4th century Eusebian forgeries, as you appear to be claiming, then what four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was Irenaeus referring to back in the 2nd century? Or did Eusebius create the fiction of Irenaeus as well (not to mention Muratori and Clement of Alexandria)?

IMO he was ordered to fabricate an army of authors.
The chronology of publications is outlined here.

I am not sure what Eusebius was ordered to do, but it is undeniable that there was massive fraud as it relates to the history of Jesus. Virtually all events surrounding Jesus are either fictitious or incredible as reported in the Gospels.

And, what I am now realising, is even though Irenaeus quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, it is really not known that the unknown authors were truthful and if their writings were altered post Irenaeus.

According to Wikipedia, Irenaeus' date of birth is uncertain, it may be 115, 125, 130 or 142CE. But, what is even stranger, is that it is not known when he died, although, he was buried under the church of Saint John's in Lyon. Now, this is incredible, a dead body and no date of death, not even within a year.

Minimalist · 08-07-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackal5096

Quote:

The article actually does not make this specific
claim, I happened to have done so. And you
dont appear to understand the implications
of the hypothesis of Eusebian fiction.

If the four gospels were 4th century Eusebian forgeries, as you appear to be claiming, then what four gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John was Irenaeus referring to back in the 2nd century? Or did Eusebius create the fiction of Irenaeus as well (not to mention Muratori and Clement of Alexandria)?

I keep running into a guy on another board who is apparently a follower of the Tubingen School, allthough he won't use the word but he refers to 19th century scholars who seem to have been involved with it. His claim is that christianity was devised in the 4th century and ALL (my emphasis but his words) prior references to any form of christianity are forgeries meant to set the stage for the later establishment of christianity.

I have asked for English language links to support his claims (he's German) but so far, nothing. Still....there are people who believe this stuff, Jackal.

khalimirov · 08-07-2007, 01:25 PM

It's funny how easily anything that tries to discredit Christianity gets taken seriously here.

Toto · 08-07-2007, 02:35 PM

I beg your pardon, khalimirov, but you will not find many people here who take the idea that Christianity was invented from scratch in the 4th century seriously.

khalimirov · 08-07-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I beg your pardon, khalimirov, but you will not find many people here who take the idea that Christianity was invented from scratch in the 4th century seriously.

Oh, I'm sorry Toto, my bad. I was under the impression that this idea was seriously being discussed. I'm sure you are right that most here won't take that seriously.

Minimalist · 08-07-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalimirov

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I beg your pardon, khalimirov, but you will not find many people here who take the idea that Christianity was invented from scratch in the 4th century seriously.

Oh, I'm sorry Toto, my bad. I was under the impression that this idea was seriously being discussed. I'm sure you are right that most here won't take that seriously.

Right. Second century seems a more likely date!

darstec · 08-07-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

IMO he was ordered to fabricate an army of authors.
The chronology of publications is outlined here.

I am not sure what Eusebius was ordered to do, but it is undeniable that there was massive fraud as it relates to the history of Jesus. Virtually all events surrounding Jesus are either fictitious or incredible as reported in the Gospels.

And, what I am now realising, is even though Irenaeus quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, it is really not known that the unknown authors were truthful and if their writings were altered post Irenaeus.

According to Wikipedia, Irenaeus' date of birth is uncertain, it may be 115, 125, 130 or 142CE. But, what is even stranger, is that it is not known when he died, although, he was buried under the church of Saint John's in Lyon. Now, this is incredible, a dead body and no date of death, not even within a year.

Actually Iraeneus does NOT quote from any of those gospels. Several months ago on alt.atheism I went into detail into every one of those supposed quotes and for the most part they were single verses with the most quoted consisted of three words, the majority of the rest only had one word in common with the verses it supposedly quoted.

It is dishonesty in its most flagrant variety for any scholar to claim Irenaeus quoted from any scripture. It is even worse when they pretend those quotes come from anywhere near the second century CE.

And I fail to see the reason ANYONE would use Wikipedia for any information considering how any Johnny/Jenny Lunchbucket can add or delete information, no matter how little his/her expertise (or bias) in the subject matter.

mountainman · 08-07-2007, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Actually Iraeneus does NOT quote from any of those gospels. Several months ago on alt.atheism I went into detail into every one of those supposed quotes and for the most part they were single verses with the most quoted consisted of three words, the majority of the rest only had one word in common with the verses it supposedly quoted.

After wading through the detail of Irenaeus in such a manner
did you arrive at any conclusions or observations about this
particular pre-nicene literary profile? I'd be interested to know.

Best wishes,

Pete

aa5874 · 08-07-2007, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

I am not sure what Eusebius was ordered to do, but it is undeniable that there was massive fraud as it relates to the history of Jesus. Virtually all events surrounding Jesus are either fictitious or incredible as reported in the Gospels.

And, what I am now realising, is even though Irenaeus quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, it is really not known that the unknown authors were truthful and if their writings were altered post Irenaeus.

According to Wikipedia, Irenaeus' date of birth is uncertain, it may be 115, 125, 130 or 142CE. But, what is even stranger, is that it is not known when he died, although, he was buried under the church of Saint John's in Lyon. Now, this is incredible, a dead body and no date of death, not even within a year.

Actually Iraeneus does NOT quote from any of those gospels. Several months ago on alt.atheism I went into detail into every one of those supposed quotes and for the most part they were single verses with the most quoted consisted of three words, the majority of the rest only had one word in common with the verses it supposedly quoted.

It is dishonesty in its most flagrant variety for any scholar to claim Irenaeus quoted from any scripture. It is even worse when they pretend those quotes come from anywhere near the second century CE.

And I fail to see the reason ANYONE would use Wikipedia for any information considering how any Johnny/Jenny Lunchbucket can add or delete information, no matter how little his/her expertise (or bias) in the subject matter.

So where did Irenaeus get his information from? If its dishonest to claim Irenaeus quoted from the Gospels, it is even worse for you not to show where he quoted from.

These are some of the quotes in book 2 of Against Heresies by Irenaeus that matches the KJV Gospels.

book 2.22.6, ..."Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day; and he saw it, and was glad, And they answered him, Thou art not yet fifty years old and thou hast seen Abraham?"
John 8:56-57, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and thou hast seen Abraham?"

bk2.24.4..'He suffered no man to go in save Peter and James, and the father and mother of the maiden."
Luke 8.51, And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in save Peter and James and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden".

bk 2.26.2.."Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and not one them falls to the ground without the will of the Father".
Matthew 10.29, Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father".

If these quotes are not from the Gospels, then where did they come ?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-07-2007, 01:25 PM	#34
khalimirov Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 203	It's funny how easily anything that tries to discredit Christianity gets taken seriously here.

08-07-2007, 02:35 PM	#35
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I beg your pardon, khalimirov, but you will not find many people here who take the idea that Christianity was invented from scratch in the 4th century seriously.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.