Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 12-21-2005, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

"Individual interpretation is meaningless if not supported by 2,000 years of Christian tradition."

Vast numbers of Christians, perhaps a majority, believe very firmly in individual interpretation.

Are you saying they are just plain wrong? Or are you saying they really don't believe in individual interpretation?

Of course they do but that is just the problem. They are half right and half wrong making them half pope with one leg in heaven and the other one on earth . . . which now means that hell is having been exposed to the wisdom and love of God while remaining earthbound because the other half keeps rejecting it.

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2005, 11:36 AM

Quote:

This is because they were the closest in proximity and time to the original authors. Individual interpretation is meaningless if not supported by 2,000 years of Christian tradition.

Several fascinating and non xian assumptions there!

Throughout the West at least until the Enlightenment the purpose of learning and Universities was to get back to how Adam saw the world - he had named everything, he had walked with God in Paradise.

Snag is assuming the world was created in 4004 BC, the New Testament leaders already have four thousand years of corruption of the original clear view to contend with - we see as through a glass darkly - acknowledges this! We have another two thousand years of dirt on the glass!

The discussion of sulphur in fact supports us orrible materialistic atheists who prefere to work it out ourselves by looking at it, playing with the sulphur as all good alchemists did and finding how to make things go bang!

The individualistic idea also I think goes back to the Greeks, the Battle of Marathon against the Persians being the classic event - Tom Holland Persian Fire. Protestantism is a resurgence of these earlier ideas, actually really about free thinking and the beginnings of atheism!

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2005, 11:48 AM

Of course this leads us back to religions of fire - Zarathustra et al!

I actually think you can't be a real xian without a full technicolour surround sound view of hell, with the saints enjoying the view!

If you got to do it you have to do it properly! None of this lukewarm yer just dead stuff!

(Chili - the Albigensians were saying some fascinating gnostic stuff!)

Chili · 12-21-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

I actually think you can't be a real xian without a full technicolour surround sound view of hell, with the saints enjoying the view!

I don't think so either. Hebrews tells us that the testator must be raised before he can talk about it and only he can do this while looking at those suffering in hell to keep the Church abreast of external affairs (lol).

Quote:

(Chili - the Albigensians were saying some fascinating gnostic stuff!)

You know Clive, I never read any of it but just know it to be true. There were others, as well, but you just can't have them become a religion as an -ism that would scatter the flock for the simple reason that God has no grand-children. They'd be immensly interesting to talk to and read about but not as a charismatic bunch in your midst if you are the shepherd who is reponsible for the well being of his flock. From their point of view they are constantly reminded of the narrow that they know very well and thus also the likelyhood of missing it.

Iskander · 12-21-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John A. Broussard

How do you account for the fact that, when reading the scripture, one must recognize that "day" may not mean "day," that "death" may not mean "death," that "fire" may not mean "fire," and on, and on, and on?

Do you have some rule of thumb that the reader can use to determine what the words in the bible mean?

A more benign hell is a welcome new development. Catholics are now considering the abolition of Limbo, who knows Purgatory may be next!

God is inconceivable and all what man can do is to endeavour to comprehend and hope improve our understanding of Him. The reformation gave man freedom to interpret God and the Vatican has assumed that responsibility on behalf of her followers.

Man has a duty to advance our understanding and our free will is all the justification needed. . If the new understanding means more happiness for man without endangering the moral code then the new understanding is a closer approximation to God and must replace the older one.

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

God is inconceivable and all what man can do is to endeavour to comprehend and hope improve our understanding of Him

Manuel to Basil Fawlty: Que?

Maybe God is inconceivable because he is imaginary!

fee fi fo fumb
I smell the blood of a xian
on the slippery slopes!

:devil3:

Iskander · 12-21-2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Manuel to Basil Fawlty: Que?

Maybe God is inconceivable because he is imaginary!

fee fi fo fumb
I smell the blood of a xian
on the slippery slopes!

:devil3:

It makes no difference whether God is imaginary or not.
Reality is the existence of organized religion and this is indeed very real
God is also real in the mind of people and how it is presented is a potential source of pain

It is important to decide what policy to adopt in regard to organized religion.
One view is that change is not possible because everything has already been revealed and we know precisely what he wants. This view if it prevails will mean a primitive law based in antiquity

A different view is that God is incomprehensible (or any such words) even after revelation and that we must try to improve our understanding of him. This view aims at modifying the very real existence of God as manifested by armies, courts…serving him

My comment was made to defend real change in the real world of the servants of God and in the very real world of personal emotions.

Change? YES It makes no difference whether God exists in heavens or not, he most certainly exits on Earth

Clivedurdle · 12-21-2005, 03:52 PM

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked:

Quote:

On several occasions, when the Beagle has been within the mouth of the Plata, the rigging has been coated with the web of the Gossamer Spider. One day (November 1st, 1832) I paid particular attention to this subject. The weather had been fine and clear, and in the morning the air was full of patches of the flocculent web, as on an autumnal day in England. The ship was sixty miles distant from the land, in the direction of a steady, though light, breeze. Vast numbers of a small spider, about one-tenth of an inch in length, and of a dusky red colour, were attached to the webs. There must have been, I should suppose, some thousands on the ship. The little spider, when first coming in contact with the rigging, was always seated on a single thread, and not on the flocculent mass. This latter seems merely to be produced by the entanglement of the single threads. The spiders were all of one species, but of both sexes, together with young ones. These latter were distinguished by their smaller size and more dusky colour. I will not give the description of this spider, but merely state that it does not appear to me to be included in any of Latreille’s genera. The little aëronaut as soon as it arrived on board was very active, running about, sometimes letting itself fall, and then reascending the same thread; sometimes employing itself in making a small and very irregular mesh in the corners between the ropes. It could run with facility on the surface of the water. When disturbed it lifted up its front legs, in the attitude of attention. On its first arrival it appeared very thirsty, and with exserted maxillæ drank eagerly of drops of water; this same circumstance has been observed by Strack: may it not be in consequence of the little insect having passed through a dry and rarefied atmosphere? Its stock of web seemed inexhaustible. While watching some that were suspended by a single thread, I several times observed that the slightest breath of air bore them away out of sight, in a horizontal line. 32
On another occasion (25th) under similar circumstances, I repeatedly observed the same kind of small spider, either when placed or having crawled on some little eminence, elevate its abdomen, send forth a thread, and then sail away horizontally, but with a rapidity which was quite unacccountable. I thought I could perceive that the spider, before performing the above preparatory steps, connected its legs together with the most delicate threads, but I am not sure whether this observation was correct. 33
One day, at St. Fé, I had a better opportunity of observing some similar facts. A spider which was about three-tenths of an inch in length, and which in its general appearance resembled a Citigrade (therefore quite different from the gossamer), while standing on the summit of a post, darted forth four or five threads from its spinners. These, glittering in the sunshine, might be compared to diverging rays of light; they were not, however, straight, but in undulations like films of silk blown by the wind. They were more than a yard in length, and diverged in an ascending direction from the orifices. The spider then suddenly let go its hold of the post, and was quickly borne out of sight. The day was hot and apparently calm; yet under such circumstances, the atmosphere can never be so tranquil as not to affect a vane so delicate as the thread of a spider’s web. If during a warm day we look either at the shadow of any object cast on a bank, or over a level plain at a distant landmark, the effect of an ascending current of heated air is almost always evident: such upward currents, it has been remarked, are also shown by the ascent of soap-bubbles, which will not rise in an in-doors room. Hence I think there is not much difficulty in understanding the ascent of the fine lines projected from a spider’s spinners, and afterwards of the spider itself; the divergence of the lines has been attempted to be explained, I believe by Mr. Murray, by their similar electrical condition. The circumstance of spiders of the same species, but of different sexes and ages, being found on several occasions at the distance of many leagues from the land, attached in vast numbers to the lines, renders it probable that the habit of sailing through the air is as characteristic of this tribe, as that of diving is of the Argyroneta. We may then reject Latreille’s supposition, that the gossamer owes its origin indifferently to the young of several genera of spiders: although, as we have seen, the young of other spiders do possess the power of performing aërial voyages. 7

http://www.bartleby.com/29/8.html

(Voyage of the Beagle)

Half-Life · 12-21-2005, 09:28 PM

What about in revelation where it says "depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire?" Does this not indicate torment for eternity?

Also after Judas betrays Jesus, Jesus says "it would have been better had you not been born." Now, if there is no torment or torture, why would Jesus say this?

There has to be punishment, right?

Chili · 12-21-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

Also after Judas betrays Jesus, Jesus says "it would have been better had you not been born." Now, if there is no torment or torture, why would Jesus say this?

There has to be punishment, right?

Yes, but in this statement has nothing to do with hell or fire. Judas is Judaism here coming to an end with the liberation of the son of man = knowledge frees.

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12-21-2005, 11:48 AM	#43
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Of course this leads us back to religions of fire - Zarathustra et al! I actually think you can't be a real xian without a full technicolour surround sound view of hell, with the saints enjoying the view! If you got to do it you have to do it properly! None of this lukewarm yer just dead stuff! (Chili - the Albigensians were saying some fascinating gnostic stuff!)

12-21-2005, 09:28 PM	#49
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	What about in revelation where it says "depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire?" Does this not indicate torment for eternity? Also after Judas betrays Jesus, Jesus says "it would have been better had you not been born." Now, if there is no torment or torture, why would Jesus say this? There has to be punishment, right?

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