charles brough

Yes, you should take a couple course on biology in order to answer your questions. I like that curiosity; you should put it to work.

charles,
http://atheistic-science.com

glooper23

Thanks!

I'm starting to see where my problem is. I don't think I've been asking the question that will give me what I'm looking for.

When I ask about how complex processes come from simpler processes, I'm given the concepts of genes, feedback loops, etc. What I'm gathering from your responses (I've yet to read linked articles), it sounds like you believe in intelligent design.

Am I wrong in this? I guess what I've been aiming for is how those genes were created. Will the linked info about evolution explain how simple materials evolved into the genes?

In the above quotes, it sounds like evolution strategies have a mind of their own. It sounds like the genes react to the environment by making intelligent decisions as to what to pass on to the next generation.

I'm sorry if that sounds really dumb, but this is primarily what I'm aiming for. Do you believe there is some "tinkerer" or intelligent designer generating these genes / templates?

I can understand biologically how life can adapt and change via genes and DNA (well, generally). What it seems like I want is did these genes evolve from basic elements, or do you believe they were created by a designer?

I like to believe in the big bang starting everything. Following that idea, the earth formed, and all life on the earth started from there. I don't believe there's every been any interaction on the universe by a designer. Once he pushed the button to start the universe, everything has occurred from it. From this viewpoint, I struggle to grasp the idea of templates and genes.

Maybe that explains my dilemma better.

Dentarthurdent

No. Genes do not react. They are either copied, or they are not. That's it.

Let's say in a whole population of animals, one in born that has slightly better hearing than the others, and that this better hearing is caused by a slight difference in its genetic make-up.

The slightly better hearing gives this animal an advantage over its fellow animals, and it survives, while its friends are eaten by predators they couldn't hear from far enough away. This animal has survived to mate and produce offspring, which will inherit the genes that caused the superior hearing of this animal.

It's a little more complicated than this, but you can get the gist of it.

I'd recommend this book: River out of Eden

glooper23

I will take a look at that book, thanks. My response to your post would be: I understand survival of the fittest in regard to genetic makeup, but where did the genetic makeup come from? Did that evolve from basic elements, or is it believed to have been predesigned?

Occam's Aftershave

You are wrong. We've been trying to explain to you that once you have a population of self-replicators with heritable traits, no further "intelligent' input is necessary for complexity to arise. How the first self replicators arose is another matter...

No! There is no conscious decision making or "looking ahead" involved. The animal carrying the genes either survives to mate or it doesn't. The survival probability depend on the genetic makeup of the original animal plus whatever curves the environment throws at it. The weather vane on the top of my house always seems to point in the direction the wind is blowing, but you wouldn't say it is making an intelligent decision where to point, would you?

Sounds like what you're really interested in is research into the origins of life, or OOL for short. How the first self replicating molecules formed is an active area of investigation with multiple interesting hypotheses. Of course, once the first imperfect self replicators developed then it was off to the evolutionary races!

Here is a good overview of recent OOL research. Although the article is 2 years old (which is a lifetime in fast moving scientific research!), it covers many popular ideas.

The Origin of Life

BTW, you seem like a sharp individual and are asking some good questions. Don't get discouraged because many of the tough questions require some in depth knowledge to be fully answered.

Zeluvia

There is a series on TV called "Evolve". And another called "The Universe".

And I watched something a few weeks ago about how DNA creates individual organs and body parts, embryology. Something about zones, and fruit flies with legs on their head = )

Smullyan-esque

The advice is infrequently helpful because it is infrequently followed.

Method

The zones are homeobox or hox genes. They are the master switches of development. DNA does not contain a liver gene, stomach gene, leg gene, etc. Instead, there are master switches that turn on a whole suite of genes at certain levels and at specific times. This causes cells to differentiate and become part of a functional tissue. If you mutate these sequences or move them around in the genome then you can get things like legs growing out of fruit fly heads. The wrong genes are turned on at the wrong time and space resulting in misplaced organs.

glooper23

Excellent. It does indeed seem that my curiosity is less within evolution and more in the origins of life. I will get reading!

anthrosciguy

You know, if I truly wanted to learn about some complex subject I'd want to be able to go to some forum and have someone distill it down into one forum post. Say 500-1000 words. But I know that's an unreasonable desire, so I go look for info instead.

It isn't that hard to find; even here a simple forum search would turn up the site Talk Origins, which has tons of easy to read and understandable info. It would turn up the names of some easy to read books by Richard Dawkins and others too. Probably some web sites.

But people often don't seem to want to do that. They want that all encompassing post, the "5 Minute Education". Ain't gonna happen. Can't happen.