steamer

According to some of the Christians here, god is not all powerful.

God, knowing exactly what dead Christians will be like the moment they enter heaven, could not have created them as they would be at that moment. Thus creating only those souls that enter heaven and bypassing any self-imposed requirement that anyone enter hell or experience "separation".

If god could not do this then he is not all powerful. If god chose the evil of creating unnecessary suffering instead then he is evil and cannot be trusted as it is much easier to lie than to create eternal damnation.

If I know exactly what I want to create and have power to create it then I can create it. Why can't god?

Clivedurdle

Freewill dahling!

steamer

What about it?

seebs

I am not sure it is coherent to speak of creating something with a history. You could create something with memories, but that's not the same as having an actual history.

If the history of how you get somewhere is part of your state, and I think it is, then the only way to "create" someone with a given history is for them to live it.

steamer

Don't be silly Seebs, it is obviously not impossible and the "history" is irrelevent. What the "history" has made you is already known and you will exist in a known state at the moment you enter heaven. If god has the knowledge and the power to create that entity then there is no reason why he couldn't. Yet he chose to have billions experience separation or outright torment instead. Why did god choose to do this evil act? Can you really trust an entity that would do such a thing?

steamer

I really think this is a question that deserves an answer. So far the answer seems to be that god could not avoid the evil...Which I think is bunk. Certain knowledge of an individuals state which includes a history is as authentic as an actual history if that being were to be recreated or just created with the history intact.

Steve Schlicht

I agree with you, steamer.

Following along that same line of thought one should also examine the claim/concept of "Heaven" as a perfect and eternal paradise after death free from "evil".

If such a place "can" exist without the excuse that "freewill" is the gift from God which allows "evil" to exist in our human life then why allow "evil" in any case?

Will there be no gift of "freewill" in Heaven and the "afterlife"?

Or does the game of joy and suffering never end?

Would the occupants still have the excuse of "freewill" to act in Heaven or will these "souls" be bound by the constraints of their "choice" to worship God endlessly?

Wouldn't such an eternal heavenly existence of endless worshipful automation remove all personality and individuality we worked so hard to attain in our human life?

Isn't that the same argument that is used to show the benefit that God allowing "evil" into this world provides?

Why promise us Heaven, when it appears (within the Christian argument) that "evil" is a necessary and beneficial element according the God's plan?

There are all sorts of interesting questions that arise from claiming that perfection without "evil" can exist somewhere.

Steve

Smullyan-esque

[Liberal Christian Hat]
So, this argument basically says that the experience we THINK we are experiencing right now is just the created memories that God places in our minds as we are created in front of the Pearly Gates. Many of the people we THINK we see around us are actually illusions, as God would never create a person destined for Hell. The only real people we see are the others who are also destined for Heaven, like WE are.
[/Liberal Christian Hat]

[Fundie Christian Hat]
We have no way of knowing why God chose to create so many people destined for Hell. We have no right to judge God for making that choice. God is as far above us, and as beyond understanding, as we are above an ant. In fact, God is even farther above us, for He is infinite!
[/Fundie Christian Hat]

I think you seriously underestimate the abilitiy of Faith to defeat Reason. A smart person can usually find a way to MAKE the answer work, if they know ahead of time what answer they want to get.

steamer

Actually I think you'd have to conclude that everyone goes to heaven in order to have it make any sense. An all good god created no one he knew was destined for hell.

By this argument, one could as easily worship the devil. If we cannot know a tree according to its fruits then we cannot know god at all and its quite likely that humans could learn to worship any evil imaginable...Of course it seems that they have.

Certainly true for many, but for some, well, for some, compelling arguments compel.

nixon

I agree with Steamer on this one. Christians may think that you need history, but all you really need is the memories of history. It need not be real or have even actually happened to you in a real or virtual state (As in programmed in VS physical experience). I may have a memory of going to Kings Island last month, but I didn't actually go. The memory was planted there, and I have no way to determine if it's real or not. (Unless the planter is incompetant and plants enough clues to let me know it wasn't real.)

On other topics, this is one of the best heaven / afterlife threads I've seen in a while. May god(s) bless it's growth.