Duvduv

I meant to post on the next posting. Sorry.

Duvduv

Huh? ??? This is where I meant to post.

sotto voce

No problem.

Tom Sawyer

Of course not. Hercules is doing something completely different. You don't seem to fully understand what an analogy is. :huh:

Jesus ended up on a cross because Jesus wanted to end up on a cross and nobody really did anything to him. When my four year old jumps on my back and punches me and I pretend that it hurts and I can't get up, the suffering I'm going through because of it is fake and you can't therefore draw any meaning from my suffering.

It's the same with Jesus. He faked all of his suffering. It wasn't real. The Romans weren't actually hurting him and he could have stopped the dog-and-pony show anytime he wanted to as easily as I can stand up and stop my kid from punching me and tell him to go wash his hands when my wife says that dinner is ready. Since the suffering is fake, you can't draw any kind of moral lesson from the suffering because it's not something that actually happened. It's something that Jesus was pretending was happening.

sotto voce

But Jesus does.

Not for its own sake.

So he nailed himself on. Carpenters' trick of the trade.

Now to state that Jesus felt no pain or suffering is to impose circularity. That is fine for one's own private opinion, but it needs evidence if for public consumption. And evidence, it may be supposed, is unavailable.

aa5874

No, No, No!!!!!!

It is NOT the same with Jesus.

The crucificxion of a God NEVER happened.

A God called Jesus did NOT ever pretend he was suffering.

All we have is a Myth Fable of antiquity that people BELIEVED.

Christians also believed in Marcion's Phantom.

Tom Sawyer

Of course it never happened. We're talking about it in the context of the story, however, so that's not very relevant.

Your comment is akin to responding to someone who says that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father by saying that he's not because Darth Vader is fictional.

aa5874

What do you think I am talking about?

It is the same fiction story that you say Jesus was pretending to suffer and what you say isn't relevant because it could not even happen.

As soon as it was stated that Jesus was the Son of a Ghost and God the Creator that walked on water I immediately realized that Jesus was NOT pretending to suffer but the authors themselves were writing Myth Fables and perhaps Pretending to write history.

Tom Sawyer

Yes, it's fictional, but there's nothing which prevents someone from discussing fictional topics as if they were real and decide whether or nto someone's created a plausible storyline.

Jesus being the god described and also suffering in the manner described is a contradictory narrative. Therefore, if someone is saying that Jesus is a god (as the person I was responding to was doing) and is also saying that Jesus suffered in the way that he is said to have (as the person I was responding to was doing), then they are making a contradictory statement which doesn't add up. It being fictional doesn't resolve that contradiction, it just makes for poor story-telling.

My point is that the story as he was describing it doesn't make any sense.

JonA

One way to determine whether the gospel writers believed Jesus to be a physical being is to look at instances where they do not describe him as such and compare them to instances where the nature of their description is in question.

A good place to look is the resurrection accounts given in the three gospels. From John we have this:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
John 20:26–29 (NRSV):

A week later his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were shut, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.' Then he said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.' Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.'

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

From Luke:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Luke 24: 30–31 (NRSV):

When he was at the table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight.

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

These are clearly descriptions of a very ghostly incorporeal Jesus who appears and disappears at a moment's notice.

Compare these to other descriptions of Jesus, and it becomes pretty clear that the gospel authors took efforts to emphasis the corporeal nature of the pre-crucified Jesus:

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
John 19:34 (NRSV):

Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out.

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

[HR="1"]100[/HR]
Mark 8:22–26 (NRSV):

They came to Bethsaida. Some people brought a blind man to him and begged him to touch him. He took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village; and when he had put saliva on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, 'Can you see anything?' And the man looked up and said, 'I can see people, but they look like trees, walking.' Then Jesus laid his hands on his eyes again; and he looked intently and his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. Then he sent him away to his home, saying, 'Do not even go into the village.'

[HR="1"]100[/HR]

The gospel writers clearly saw Jesus as a physical being.

Jon