arnoldo

Wasn't that the reason Yeshua was crucified, for being regarded as only human yet claiming to be worthy to receive worship from man? And if so, doesn't this supports a HJ rather than a MJ?

spamandham

The case:

- Paul never quotes from Jesus even when it would be a home run for the points he makes

- Paul claims his gospel was revealed to him directly in a vision and not by men (except in 1 Cor 15 which I do not consider genuine for multiple reasons)

- Paul states twice that the the crucifixion was demonstrated/portrayed by him to others. It's clear he is referring either to a scriptural argument he developed, or some kind of flim flam show he went around putting on.

- Jesus' family (save James) dropped off the face of the earth until Tertullian discusses them. This is an extraordinarily odd cult phenomenon.

- Regarding James, he was the leader of the Jerusalem church, which was the lead church. He was effectively the pope and was later memorialized as "James the Just"...indicating how people viewed him in his day. In Romans 8:29+, Paul basically states that those of high virtue are brothers of Jesus. Combining all this, "brother of the lord" was clearly (to me) a special title for James and did not indicate a blood relationship.

- The gospels are outlandish and absurd. It's easy to see why though, they are a symbolic exegesis of OT scriptures rather than history reports...Jesus is the foundational character in the origins story of Christianity just like Abraham is the foundational character in the origins story of Judaism. Not too surprising, since those most intimately familiar with the Abraham myth simply reused the concept when it was time to invent Jesus.

- The gospels predict the complete decimation of the temple. This actually happened..not in 70CE, but in the 2nd century as a result of the Bar Kochba revolt. The temple was destroyed in 70CE but not utterly. This indicates a later date for the gospels, and much of the Christian/Jewish conflict in them makes historical sense. It's at that time that an origin story becomes needed.

- Improbable symbolism:
Jesus' name matches the role he plays. This is common in Jewish mythology but must be chocked up to coincidence otherwise.
Jesus has 12 disciples. Paul refers to "the 12" as if they were some legendary group rather than 12 men of recent history. They were of course, since Jesus is symbolic of the Jews themselves, and the 12 tribes are "the 12".
The body and blood ritual - not found Judaism, but elements of it are found in the surrounding culture. This indicates that Christianity was a merger of Jewish and Hellenistic ideas rather than the result of some Jewish messiah cult rooted in a recent cult leader.
The passion story. It's easily seen as a script right out of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. Jesus even quotes form Psalm 22 to drive the point home.

...anyway, these are the major points I would make that are difficult to explain with any straightforward HJ hypothesis, but trivial to explain once that bugaboo is abandoned.

spamandham

Not really. Read the gospels carefully, and you will see the authors foreshadowing his death early on after he challenges the authority of the temple priests.

From a literary perspective, this is why he was crucified. The charge of being 'king of the Jews' (which would be a form of rebellion against Rome and actually punishable by crucifixion) is trumped up according to the story...although Jesus also doesn't deny it. Pilate then ignores this very real charge and allows him to be crucified anyway. It's supposed to be ironic comedy of errors.

aa5874

What then was the point of Jesus coming to earth as a man to be deified by people who do not worship historical figures?

It would have been completely theologically idiotic for the supposed Peter and Paul to have asked Jews to deify a dead man who was known for thirty years as a man in Galilee.

Unless you have not read Philo, you probably won't understand that it was virtually impossible that the Jews would have worshiped a man as a God. Not even King David, the Christ of God, the Psalmist, was deified, much less a worthless blasphemer.

Unless you have not read the Church writings you probably don't realise that Jesus believers did not worship men as Gods. Jesus believers and people called Christians were executed because they worshiped Christ as a God and refused to worship the Roman Emperors.

Unless you have not read the NT Canon, you probably don't understand that Jesus in the Canon was fully God, the Creator, before anything was made, who took on the flesh of a man.

You simply cannot use the NT, and Church writings to argue that Jesus was just a man. Once you use the NT as a source for your human Jesus, then I will use the very NT to counter you.

You are claiming that Jesus was crucified in the NT, well that is not all there is about Jesus in the NT.

1. The conception through the Holy Ghost does not help the HJ.

2. The temptation on the pinnacle does not help the HJ.

3. The walking on water by Jesus does not help the HJ.

4. The transfiguration does not help the HJ.

5. The resurrection does not help the HJ.

6. The second coming of Jesus does not help the HJ.

7. The Epistles do not help the HJ.

8. And the story of the betrayal, arrest, trial and crucifixion of Jesus are based on a non-historical character who was born of the Holy Ghost. The story does not help the HJ.

Please find some other source for your human Jesus, you simply won't find an human Jesus in the NT.

The NT is about God and his offspring, Jesus Christ. You must have forgotten.

Toto

You realize that if you admit 1st c, Christians thought like this, you are supporting mythicism. This is the essence of the mythicist case: Jesus is a theological construct. There is no historical information about him, and there never was.

Steven Carr

If Jesus was crucified for that reason, why were not his followers stoned to death the minute they entered synagogues?

And why did the death of James, the brother of this Jesus, so outrage Jews that the High Priest was deposed and another Jesus made High Priest in his place? (At least according to what we read in Josephus today)

arnoldo

There is no historical information about thousands of people who lived over two thousand years ago. Does that mean that these persons did not exist? How is your argument any different from the argument that a falling tree makes no sound if no one is there to hear it's fall?

arnoldo

There were many messianic pretenders in the first century. Why did the Jews believe these persons were going to deliver Israel from the grip of the Roman Empire?

Doug Shaver

Does it have to be dogmatic materialism? Could I be justified in holding to a mythicist interpretation if I simply accept materialism without being dogmatic about it?

Doug Shaver

Can you name one who was (a) a Jew and (b) worshiped by other Jews as a god (or something similar to a god) within a few years after his death?