Ben C Smith

No problem. More anon.

Ben.

Amaleq13

The fuss is about your professed confusion about the differentiation between descriptions and identifications. A "handful" is more than a slight exaggeration given what I've said would accomplish the task.

What follows suggests you continue to be confused about what is a description and what is an identification.

Paul spends the majority of his letters describing a Heavenly Son of God who Incarnated in the form of a man, was crucified in that form, and was resurrected as the Lord Jesus Christ. With regard to the Incarnation, Paul says very little and what little he says is rather general.

The author of Mark wrote a story about a man named Jesus who was apparently adopted as the Son of God at his baptism and secretly the Messiah, he was crucified and raised from the dead.

I think it is clear that they are both describing their religious beliefs in the same theological figure but, given the clearly mythological nature of the latter's story and the paucity of descriptions of the Incarnated Form in the former, the above conclusion is clearly far from certain. You certainly cannot claim to have identified the historical Jesus from this mess.

He has already indicated otherwise in this very thread so you might want to check your certainty level indicator.

It is pretty much all you have to work with but your efforts above seem to me to be more a reflection of your own beliefs/presuppositions/assumptions than an accurate summary of the actual descriptions offered.

Ben C Smith

Are you referring to this statement?

You have a prophet who wanders into town, makes people angry, gets crucified, and is abandoned by his followers. That is a positive identification for Jesus in your judgment?

Chris Weimer mentioned the leader of the very Jewish sect that later became Christianity, a messianic contender, who was crucified by the Romans. Is that also a positive identification?

I mentioned (quite offhandedly) a man named Jesus, brother of the James who later led the Jerusalem church, who was known to be a good teacher, had followers, and then was crucified under Pilate in Jerusalem. Is that a positive identification?

Ben.

Amaleq13

Yep

I would be willing to consider it as such, yes. Identifying him by name would be nice though the name was common. Adding, in a disparaging tone commensurate with a "pernicious superstition", that those followers later preached that he had risen from the dead would be, dare I say it?, irrefutable.

I don't see how given that the above description is obtained from the theological myths called the Gospels and we don't even have confirmation of any of it in Paul.

Same problems as above with the exception of the connection to Jacob (that's for a special someone who might be reading this ) that, as I've said, still has its own problems.

Johann_Kaspar

1) Those "scholars" are making an anachronism.
2) Who cares about the majority, if the majority is wrong?

Johann_Kaspar

Wrong, this "sect" was destroyed. Someone else picked up the texts and changed all the meanings. From redemption of Israel to individual redemption. If you don't understand this...

Ben C Smith

Quite possibly.

Vork does. He asked.

We are speaking in the hypothetical. I have offered no evidence for my position for historicism, because this thread is about evidence for mythicism. Do you have any positive evidence for mythicism to contribute, or are you content to shoot peas from offstage?

Ben.

jjramsey

Slight correction. Paul does not imply that this incarnated man was not called Jesus Christ until his resurrection, but even refers to Christ as having died, for example, in Romans 8:34,

Ben C Smith

Hi, Amaleq.

I think our private messages have cleared up most of the confusion. Thanks. I was not offering an independent source like your hypothetical Josephus quote because I was speaking purely in the hypothetical: What if I could demonstrate A, B, and C? I think we are all clear on that.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

List update: I have the following four items so far. Did I miss any?

1. 1 John 4.2-3.
2. Justin Martyr, Dialogue 8.4.
3. M. Felix, Octavius 9.4; 29.2.
4. Ignatius to the Magnesians 11.1.

Ben.