Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Julian · 03-24-2006, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

The second of the Kephalaia is at the top of the next page in the first column:

http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2002/GA02_009b.jpg

Again, it is the "half percent sign" with an underscore right above the capital "O" of Opseias.

The third is a little farther down on the same page. Note the "half percent sign" with an underscore. This is the one I wrote of earlier. The actual section begins in the middle of the column after the space. The initial letter "K" of "kai" of the of this new paragraph has a line over it indicating that it corresponds to the sign. Since the paragraph began in the middle of the column, the "Pi" on the next line is capitalized.

Any more clear?

Yes, somewhat clearer now. So is a τιτλος the text of the κεφαλαια at the top of a page? Where is the text for the second mark on that page?

Julian

Phlox Pyros · 03-24-2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

So is a τιτλος the text of the κεφαλαια at the top of a page?

The Titloi still confuse me a bit. I'm not sure exactly how they relate to the Kephalaia. I need to do some more reading on the in Metzger's palaeography work.

Quote:

Where is the text for the second mark on that page?

Could you post a picture of it or describe it in detail? Thanks.

Julian · 03-24-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Could you post a picture of it or describe it in detail? Thanks.

Er, well, no. It is the fact that it isn't there that is puzzling. There are two marks yet only one κεφαλαια entry on top of the page.

Julian

Phlox Pyros · 03-24-2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Er, well, no. It is the fact that it isn't there that is puzzling. There are two marks yet only one κεφαλαια entry on top of the page.

Oh. I see your confusion. Again, I think the text at the top are the Titloi, not the Kephalaia (even though they are numbered similarly). If I am wrong, then I am not sure why this is the case either.

I think that in later texts, like E - Codex Basiliensis, the numbers are included with the Kephalaia marks making it a little more easy to understand.

Just FYI, there is another Kephalaia mark in the second column of the above mentioned page.

Roger Pearse · 03-24-2006, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

The second of the Kephalaia is at the top of the next page in the first column:

http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2002/GA02_009b.jpg

Again, it is the "half percent sign" with an underscore right above the capital "O" of Opseias.

Looking at the table of kephalaia, I cannot see Opseias in the second entry labelled 'b'. The line does not, to my eye, appear to correspond to the text at the head of column 1 on http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2002/GA02_009b.jpg.

There seems to be text at the top of the page at the top of each column of text (albeit sometimes very hard to read or going off the page). Are these the titloi?

Quote:

The third is a little farther down on the same page. Note the "half percent sign" with an underscore. This is the one I wrote of earlier. The actual section ...

Argh! "Section"... are we talking about (Eusebian) sections or the text addressed by a kephalaion?

If you really would not mind, images would help a lot. Those '7' signs are all over the page.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Julian · 03-24-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Looking at the table of kephalaia, I cannot see Opseias in the second entry labelled 'b'. The line does not, to my eye, appear to correspond to the text at the head of column 1 on http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2002/GA02_009b.jpg.

There seems to be text at the top of the page at the top of each column of text (albeit sometimes very hard to read or going off the page). Are these the titloi?

Well, that's the big question. On the page you show it says περι του λεπρου and must refer to the second mark in the left column which corresponds to modern verse 40 regarding the leper. So it is a repeat of a κεφαλαια entry but we have three marks on the page yet only one line at the top. The other writings you see at the top appear to me to be the title of the current book, i.e. like here it says (illegible) ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ, spaced out in a funky manner, I guess decorative.

Quote:

Argh! "Section"... are we talking about (Eusebian) sections or the text addressed by a kephalaion?

He is talking about the section, the κεφαλαια section, marked by the swirly bit. If you look here in the left hand column, the second capital letter which is an alpha. See the swirly bit over it? Looks sort of like a letter Z? Now look on that line of text to the ΚΑΙΕΡΧΟΝΤΑΙ. See the little line over the ΚΑΙ? That's is where the κεφαλαια section starts that was marked with the Z type swirly. There should be one such swirly for each entry in the κεφαλαια.

Here is where I get confused. The κεφαλαια entries at the top of the page, and that's what I am assuming they are also known as τιτλοι, again I assume, list only one reagrdless of how many swirly Z marks there are on the page. Is it just a space issue I wonder? Just list one?

Did that help?

Julian

Julian · 03-24-2006, 10:06 AM

Even though it has been linked to earlier in this thread, it bears repeating: http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/Divisions.html

Quote:

The kefalaia or Major Headings, the ancient equivalent of our modern chapters, are the most widespread form of organization in the ancient gospel manuscripts. Their exact date is not known; they have been ascribed to such worthies as Tatian. Their absence from the Codices Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, however, argues against such an early date. We first find them in the Codices Alexandrinus and Ephraemi of the fifth century (in the gospels; for the other books see the sections on the Euthalian Apparatus and Andreas's Divisions). It will be noted that the kefalaia constitute a series of numbers which restart with each book, but not with the first word of the book. In Matthew, for instance, the first entry coicides with 2:1; in Mark, the first notation occurs at 1:23; and similarly throughout. The locations of the kefalaia are noted (with italic Arabic numerals) in the margins of the Nestle-Aland editions, and so are readily accessible today.

Corresponding to the major kefalaia are the titloi or Titles. These are simply short summaries of the actions which happen in each section. Tables of titloi are often found at the beginnings of the gospels, and the headings themselves may appear at the heads of pages or the margins of manuscripts. The titles usually take the form "peri (something)," e.g. "About the Wedding at Cana."

Julian

Phlox Pyros · 03-24-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Looking at the table of kephalaia, I cannot see Opseias in the second entry labelled 'b'. The line does not, to my eye, appear to correspond to the text at the head of column 1 on http://www.csntm.org/Manuscripts/GA%2002/GA02_009b.jpg.

You won't. The Kephalaia/Titloi are just the headings. In Alexandrinus, they won't show up in the text itself (just sometimes at the very top margin of the pages). However, you should notice that the heading corresponds to the text located at the sign in the manuscript.

Quote:

There seems to be text at the top of the page at the top of each column of text (albeit sometimes very hard to read or going off the page). Are these the titloi?

Yes, but as Julian later points out, it doesn't look like they are all there, for whatever reason... Anyone?

Quote:

Argh! "Section"... are we talking about (Eusebian) sections or the text addressed by a kephalaion?

Sorry, I'm trying guys.

I need to work on my clarity. In this case is was a Kephalaion "section".

Quote:

If you really would not mind, images would help a lot. Those '7' signs are all over the page.

I totally understand. I don't have the ability to do so right now or I would. Later in the day I may be able to do so.

Could you guys make a list of things you'd like to actually see? That might help a bit as well. Thanks.

Phlox Pyros · 03-24-2006, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

The other writings you see at the top appear to me to be the title of the current book, i.e. like here it says (illegible) ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ, spaced out in a funky manner, I guess decorative.

On the first page, over the first column, it does appear to be the title of the book. However, over the second column on the first page, it says (I believe) "B About Peter's Mother-In-Law" (it is difficult to read because the ink from the other side of the page has bled through - you can read Greek in reverse!

).

What puzzles me is that I do not see the first Kephalaion (unless it was at the top of one side of the page and simply wore off). However, the Kephalaion at the top of the second page appears to have skipped one as well...got me...

Quote:

He is talking about the section, the κεφαλαια section, marked by the swirly bit. If you look here in the left hand column, the second capital letter which is an alpha. See the swirly bit over it? Looks sort of like a letter Z? Now look on that line of text to the ΚΑΙΕΡΧΟΝΤΑΙ. See the little line over the ΚΑΙ? That's is where the κεφαλαια section starts that was marked with the Z type swirly.

That is correct except you are looking at the second column of the second page.

Quote:

There should be one such swirly for each entry in the κεφαλαια.

With something I noticed, I am beginning to doubt this a little (unless one of the kephalaia lost its underscore for some reason). I need to do a little more reasearch on this and reread the Introduction above. Either way, the "7" signs with underscores (or possibly sometimes just alone) appear to indicate the kephalaia.

Julian · 03-24-2006, 10:30 AM

I think I understand most of it now. Only a few things remain mysterious for me.

1) Why do they not show all the κεφαλαια for a particular page?

2) How does the second part of the Eusebian Canon lookup work? I got the part where we go to the table and then we get some other numbers. Do we then go to the appropriate gospel and leaf through it until we find them?

3) What is the scribble at the end of σχιζομενους that I pointed out on the first page?

The rest seems pretty straightforward. Well, now it does. It didn't earlier.

Julian

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03-24-2006, 10:30 AM	#50
Julian Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC (formerly Denmark) Posts: 3,789	I think I understand most of it now. Only a few things remain mysterious for me. 1) Why do they not show all the κεφαλαια for a particular page? 2) How does the second part of the Eusebian Canon lookup work? I got the part where we go to the table and then we get some other numbers. Do we then go to the appropriate gospel and leaf through it until we find them? 3) What is the scribble at the end of σχιζομενους that I pointed out on the first page? The rest seems pretty straightforward. Well, now it does. It didn't earlier. Julian

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