EarlDoherty

Just a heads-up to alert readers of this thread that I have posted a piece on the "Archons" thread which relates in many ways to the issues being discussed here. GDon in particular may find some of my observations worthy of consideration.

All the best,
Earl Doherty

Amaleq13

Mark Twain is not at all analogous to Marcion.

You need a reader of HF referring to Jim in terms similar to Marcion's references to Jesus.

It seems to me that a belief in a docetic Jesus who existed on earth at a specific point in history constitutes a belief in a historical, albeit ultimately noncorporeal, Jesus.

jakejonesiv

Paul and Jesus were both fictional.

The Marcionites retrojected their theology into the apostolic past, in order to provide themselves with a pedigree and a precedent for their doctrines in the theological conflicts of the second century. Marcion likely outright forged the earliest version of Galatians.

Therefore, if Marcion and Mark Twain both knew they were writing fiction ...

Ben C Smith

Hi, Jake.

What do you make of Basilides quoting from Paul?

Also, what do you do with Papias, 1 Clement, and Ignatius?

And why would Justin Martyr, a contemporary and opponent of Marcion, quote from works forged by Marcion as if they were scripture?

Thanks.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

Hi Ben,

Those are good questions. For 1 Clement and Ignatius, see 1 Clement and the Ignatiana
in Dutch Radical Criticism

For Papias' see here.

Justin Martyr never mentions Paul. There are a few passages that resemble passages in the catholic redaction of Paul, they are not in Marcion's version.

According to Clement of Alexandria, I seem to remember that Marcion came before Balisades, but honestly I can't remember now. I will have to check it out.

Jake Jones IV

Ben C Smith

Unfortunately, that page mounted no argument against the historicity of Papias.

Sorry, I was referring to the gospels. (I think it is your position that the gospels, too, started with Marcion, right?)

I would like to see that. Thanks.

Ben.

jakejonesiv

The historicity of Papias is not the point; it is that writings attributed him cannot be shown to predate Eusubius.


Hi Ben,

No. IMO Marcion and the heretics originated the Pauline epistles, but the gospels (which did not reach current form until late 2c) originated with the proto-orthodox. Marcion took some proto gospel and modified it to suit his dogma. He was accused of changing it constantly, which may be true. Whether Justin Martyr counted Marcion's shennanigans in with the Memoirs I don't know, but would guess not.

Jake Jones IV

Ben C Smith

We have many independent voices attesting to the five books of Papias, a couple of which predate Eusebius (Irenaeus, the anti-Marcionite prologues).

Whether each individual snippet is authentic is a one-at-a-time question. The snippets that Eusebius quotes from Papias virtually have to predate Eusebius, since he himself sees things differently than Papias does, and how likely is it he would attribute something to an early Christian writer (presumably so as to bestow the blessings of antiquity upon it) and simultaneously disagree with what he wrote, even calling the writer an idiot (presumably so as to warn the reader to take things with a grain of salt)?

Ah, I see. My mistake. I thought you had Marcion inventing the gospel of Luke, too.

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

Maybe Jake can clarify it for himself, but I didn't understand his "some proto gospel" to be a reference to our gospel of Luke.

Stephen

Ben C Smith

Nor did I, but I had thought that Jake had Marcion cleanly inventing the first proto-gospel out of thin air, as it were, a proto-gospel that with some proto-orthodox amplification became our canonical Luke.

Ben.