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Old 11-04-2005, 09:11 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeWallack
[
The next step is to Textual Analyze to try and figger out what was original and what subsequent ChristianiT's Reaction was to The Original:
]
One step would be to look at incidents in the bible where sins were forgiven using no blood sacrifice at all. Then ask yourself, why a god would send himself, or a representative, down to do something totally unnecessary. After reading that none of the gospels are in accord on the significant details of the whole story, what is the point in trying to analyze text? If it was written by representatives of God, they would be specific and agree If you are analyzing the texts look for hidden meaning. With the stories so contradictory, there is a hidden message that everyone is overlooking, or the god you are dealing with is questionable at most.
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:11 PM   #52
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rhutchin wrote:
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How this [the idea that Jesus cried out because sin had “separated him� from God] happened given that Christ is God seems to be a mystery.
(my addition [] for clarity)

Equinox wrote:

In other words, it simply doesn't make sense. It continues to amaze me that even after a Christian publically admits something simply doesn't make sense, that they continue to claim to believe it. The fact that a human mind can be rendered so useless is a scary thing to behold - Christianity is indeed powerful.

CJD wrote:

"Mystery" doesn't mean "it doesn't make sense." It means it's beyond human ability to fully comprehend. What continues to amaze me is the audacity skeptics like yourself display when discussing issues about reality, as if you and all your thoughts are understood by you exhaustively.

Hubris, pal, hubris is powerful.
We are using the word “mystery" in two different ways. One is where we simply don’t have sufficient information (such as whether a coin flipped over one’s back into a river hit the water as heads or tails), and the other where a statement simply doesn’t make sense, such as if I claimed that 1+1=4. In the first case, that’s a mystery by definition #1. In the second case, it looks to me like its just a term that religions use to silence the discussion of something that is obviously silly ( definitions #6 &7 below).

Here is the definition:

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Mystery:
1. One that is not fully understood or that baffles or eludes the understanding; an enigma: How he got in is a mystery.
2. One whose identity is unknown and who arouses curiosity: The woman in the photograph is a mystery.
3. A mysterious character or quality: a landscape with mystery and charm.
4. A work of fiction, a drama, or a film dealing with a puzzling crime.
5. The skills, lore, or practices that are peculiar to a particular activity or group and are regarded as the special province of initiates. Often used in the plural: the mysteries of Freemasonry; the mysteries of cooking game.
6. A religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation.
7.
a. An incident from the life of Jesus, especially the Incarnation, Passion, Crucifixion, or Resurrection, of particular importance for redemption.
b. One of the 15 incidents from the lives of Jesus or the Blessed Virgin Mary, such as the Annunciation or the Ascension, serving in Roman Catholicism as the subject of meditation during recitation of the rosary.

8.
a. also Mystery One of the sacraments, especially the Eucharist.
b. mysteries The consecrated elements of the Eucharist.
9.
a. A religious cult practicing secret rites to which only initiates are admitted.
b. A secret rite of such a cult.

So if we were going to allow that kind of mental sleight of hand, then why not just next claim that 1 + 1 =4? When any of us claim that it doesn’t, you can again state that it’s a mystery, and then again say that:

Quote:
"Mystery" doesn't mean "it doesn't make sense." It means it's beyond human ability to fully comprehend. What continues to amaze me is the audacity skeptics like yourself display when discussing issues about reality, as if you and all your thoughts are understood by you exhaustively.

Hubris, pal, hubris is powerful.
Hubris? You’ve got to be kidding me. We have two people here. One (me) is pointing out that being “separated� from yourself simply doesn’t make sense. The other person (you) is claiming that it is true nonetheless, and that if I was in the right religion I’d known better. So you are accusing me of hubris?

Rhutchin wrote:
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I have two boys for whom I have prayed since before they were born. If I could go back and do it all over and this time not pray for them, would I observe the same outcome? My thinking is, No, but there is no way for me to prove it. I think it would be neat to go back about 200-300 years and pick a great theologian like a Jonathan Edwards or a John Owen and some known atheist and look at their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc. and see if there was a noteable difference.

Hey, let’s at least give this idea some credit – it is empirically testable. It seems quite possible to do a study examining the effect of prayer on, say, the criminal behavior of the person prayed for.

Of course, until such a study is done, rhutchin can’t claim that it is evidence that prayer works. For all he knows it could have zero effect or a harmful effect. Without the study, the most reasonable thing to do is probably to rely on the studies of prayer for someone else’s health, which show that prayer had no effect either way.


Have a fun day-

-Equinox
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Old 11-04-2005, 02:26 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by darstec
Why would a physics jounal have a story about a jet pilot who survived a crash? :huh:
For the simple reason that your Readers Digest episode refutes a basic natural law. Ever hear of 32 feet per second per second?

Physicist would be fascinated at having such a dramatic refutation of the law of gravity. They would want to know why, how, when, where. They would definitely want to see if it could be replicated--preferably with something less than live individuals.

The possibilities for inventing safety devices based on this event would be enormous.

Need I say more?
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Old 11-04-2005, 08:53 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by John A. Broussard
For the simple reason that your Readers Digest episode refutes a basic natural law. Ever hear of 32 feet per second per second?

Physicist would be fascinated at having such a dramatic refutation of the law of gravity. They would want to know why, how, when, where. They would definitely want to see if it could be replicated--preferably with something less than live individuals.

The possibilities for inventing safety devices based on this event would be enormous.

Need I say more?
You obvious didn't read the link I provided to the newspaper article of more recent falls from an even higher altitude did you? What refutation on the law of gravity? They fell, they just didn't die. That is biology. And it is obvious you missed my point on Heisenberg and its effect on physics.

How does one replicate an extremely freak event? All that shows is that things considered absolute are not. Yet that news article I provided you with shows such events are not all that infrequent.
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Old 11-05-2005, 07:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by darstec
You obvious didn't read the link I provided to the newspaper article of more recent falls from an even higher altitude did you? What refutation on the law of gravity? They fell, they just didn't die. That is biology. And it is obvious you missed my point on Heisenberg and its effect on physics.

How does one replicate an extremely freak event? All that shows is that things considered absolute are not. Yet that news article I provided you with shows such events are not all that infrequent.
Newspapers report Nessie monsters, UFOs and pictures of the Virgin Mary on freeway walls--every day.

Sorry, but I'm rather skeptical.
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