Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 08-04-2004, 10:45 PM

I find it odd that atheist continually clump the entire paranormal altogether, as it was just one big category. I don't see a valid reason for beliefs in magic, gods, fate, etc..., but one has to realize that science can't yet see all the dimensions. What is cryptic may still be found. Evidence, support either for or against. Keep the beliefs out of science.

French Prometheus · 08-05-2004, 01:32 AM

Ojuice,
I think you have some misconceptions about atheists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

if the gods are invisible, there's always going to be someone who prefers not to believe in invisible things.

You should know that beliefs are usually not a matter of "preference" or choice. I never chose not to believe in God (or gods). You can find on this very website rational reasons in favor of atheism that I personally find convincing (though you would certainly disagree). However, the idea of God/gods is so foreign to me, to my worldview and my personal experiences that I don't really need those reasons. I know many theists find it offensive but I feel the same way about YHWH or Zeus as I feel about Santa Klaus or Mr. Hankey.

Quote:

There is a tendency to put exaggerated miracles into any religion to make it more attractive to the masses. And the Greek religion was particularly guilty of this. But this tactic has a reverse effect on skeptics, making them think that the religion itself is nonsense.

Miracles are just one of the many reasons why skeptics think that religion is nonsense.

Ojuice5001 · 08-05-2004, 03:30 AM

By "prefer" I didn't mean to imply that atheism/theism is a choice. I did mean to imply that it boils down to intellectual temperament. For instance, does it make sense to believe in gods even though they are invisible and merely one of several explanations for the things we see? Atheists think not, theists think so--but the disagreement is about whether this matters, not about the facts.

As for miracles, yes, they are only one reason why skeptics think religion is nonsense. But they're an interesting one, because that one is more the religionists' own fault than the others. Most religions don't actually need miracles for anything too important. That is, you could take them out, and the other doctrines would still be just as valid. The miracles are just there to impress people. So if miracles are religiously unneccessary, and don't actually happen, and significantly raise the number of people who find religion to be nonsense, this makes miracle-claims look like a rather odd phenomenon.

trendkill · 08-05-2004, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

As for miracles, yes, they are only one reason why skeptics think religion is nonsense. But they're an interesting one, because that one is more the religionists' own fault than the others. Most religions don't actually need miracles for anything too important. That is, you could take them out, and the other doctrines would still be just as valid. The miracles are just there to impress people. So if miracles are religiously unneccessary, and don't actually happen, and significantly raise the number of people who find religion to be nonsense, this makes miracle-claims look like a rather odd phenomenon.

Not from a naturalistic perspective. If religion is a reaction to the physiological/psychological sense of the transcendent, then it makes perfect sense for it to be associated with wondrous and mysterious events. If religion is related to mythopoeic thought, then it makes sense for it to be associated with wondrous and mysterious events that didn't actually happen.

Asha'man · 08-05-2004, 05:17 AM

hiya truthie,

From my point of view, my atheism is clearly about all gods. I see them as all identical, the product of ignorance and superstition of a more primitive time.

Early man wanted explanations for natural forces, and didn’t have the tools of science to produce real answers. So early man invented his own solutions in his own image, he ascribed these natural forces anthropomorphic characteristics and called them gods. They received names and personalities, wants and needs, even faces and bodies, just like man.

Since I think this is the origin of all gods, then I disbelieve in all gods equally.

However, I am an ex-Christian, surrounded by Christians. Christianity and Islam are the two biggest religious threats to me. If I have to speak out against specific religions, it will be these targets. Since Wicca and paganism are not particularly threatening to me, I’m willing to adopt more of a live and let live attitude towards them. This does not mean that I think they are correct, just that I spend less energy speaking against them.

truthie · 08-05-2004, 04:29 PM

So, atheists (generally speaking) speak against religions depending on the threat the religion(s) has over them.

I am moving to the Science & Skepticism forum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asha'man

This does not mean that I think they are correct, just that I spend less energy speaking against them.

Got it!

T.

mega_irreverant · 08-05-2004, 07:48 PM

Hi Folks,

I have been a lurker for couple of days, and just wanted to let you folks know that I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions and learning quite a lot. My interests are in Philosophy, religion and Quantum physics. I am also a hindu. Hope I can contribute and share something sensible here.

:wave:

Asha'man · 08-06-2004, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mega_irreverant

Hi Folks

Greetings mega, and welcome to II. I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the discussion so far. Why don't you drop by the Lounge and post an introduction thread? After that, your interest in quantum physics probably warrents a visit to the Science and Skepticism forum.

mega_irreverant · 08-06-2004, 06:22 AM

Thank you Asha'Man, I will do so in a little bit.

I saw some references to Caste System etc. I would recommend the book
"Castes of Mind" by Nicholas Dirks for starters.

truthie · 08-06-2004, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mega_irreverant

Hi Folks,

:wave:

Hi, hope you enjoy the stay.

:wave:

T.

08-05-2004, 05:17 AM	#35
Asha'man Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: southeast Posts: 2,526	Products of Ignorance and Superstition hiya truthie, From my point of view, my atheism is clearly about all gods. I see them as all identical, the product of ignorance and superstition of a more primitive time. Early man wanted explanations for natural forces, and didn’t have the tools of science to produce real answers. So early man invented his own solutions in his own image, he ascribed these natural forces anthropomorphic characteristics and called them gods. They received names and personalities, wants and needs, even faces and bodies, just like man. Since I think this is the origin of all gods, then I disbelieve in all gods equally. However, I am an ex-Christian, surrounded by Christians. Christianity and Islam are the two biggest religious threats to me. If I have to speak out against specific religions, it will be these targets. Since Wicca and paganism are not particularly threatening to me, I’m willing to adopt more of a live and let live attitude towards them. This does not mean that I think they are correct, just that I spend less energy speaking against them.

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08-04-2004, 10:45 PM	#31
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I find it odd that atheist continually clump the entire paranormal altogether, as it was just one big category. I don't see a valid reason for beliefs in magic, gods, fate, etc..., but one has to realize that science can't yet see all the dimensions. What is cryptic may still be found. Evidence, support either for or against. Keep the beliefs out of science.

08-05-2004, 03:30 AM	#33
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	By "prefer" I didn't mean to imply that atheism/theism is a choice. I did mean to imply that it boils down to intellectual temperament. For instance, does it make sense to believe in gods even though they are invisible and merely one of several explanations for the things we see? Atheists think not, theists think so--but the disagreement is about whether this matters, not about the facts. As for miracles, yes, they are only one reason why skeptics think religion is nonsense. But they're an interesting one, because that one is more the religionists' own fault than the others. Most religions don't actually need miracles for anything too important. That is, you could take them out, and the other doctrines would still be just as valid. The miracles are just there to impress people. So if miracles are religiously unneccessary, and don't actually happen, and significantly raise the number of people who find religion to be nonsense, this makes miracle-claims look like a rather odd phenomenon.

08-05-2004, 07:48 PM	#37
mega_irreverant Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 5	Hi Folks, I have been a lurker for couple of days, and just wanted to let you folks know that I am thoroughly enjoying the discussions and learning quite a lot. My interests are in Philosophy, religion and Quantum physics. I am also a hindu. Hope I can contribute and share something sensible here. :wave:

08-06-2004, 06:22 AM	#39
mega_irreverant Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 5	Thank you Asha'Man, I will do so in a little bit. I saw some references to Caste System etc. I would recommend the book "Castes of Mind" by Nicholas Dirks for starters.

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