Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Iskander · 01-23-2013, 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Mountainman, I have never understood what it was about the description of the Therapeutae that identified them as Jewish in any way other than the claim that they were Jewish.
Plus, as expected, there is no reference at all to any such contemplative sect in Jewish texts from antiquity.
And there is nothing that anyone claims as a remnant of their writings even if they existed on Philo's say-so.
Then again, I take Philo with a huge grain of salt in terms of accuracy and authenticity.

Perrrfect .Thank you, Duvduv. .

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

so everyone somehow got the wrong idea about Philo being a Jew?

No. Not everyone.

Arnaldo Momigliano writes that

"Philo is another historian who cannot be classified either a Greek or a Jew."

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

There were Christians who claimed to be therapeuti ...

What source is this?

Quote:

And then if some of them had read Jewish and Christian texts in Greek they would have added, there are Jewish and Christian worshipers too.

Do you really think there would have been people reading Christian texts in Greek at the time of Philo (died c.50 CE) ?

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 07:26 AM

celsus did. there must have been others. also you are quoting momigliano out of context. he's not saying Philo wasn't a Jew. Even crazy old you has never said that.

you still have nothing. keep looking. and as i have demonstrated they weren't Ascelapian. you can't just attack the obvious interpretation of the material

aa5874 · 01-23-2013, 07:56 AM

This thread is a perfect example of how people here can ignore actual evidence and impose their imagination on a text.

"On the Contemplative Life" nowhere identifies the Therapeutae as Jews, Jewish or originating in Judea. In fact, Philo places the Therapeutae in Egypt.

If the Therapeutae were Jews and of Jewish origin then Philo would have stated it as he did with the Esssenes.

It was the Esssenes that were Jews or of Jewish origing in "Hypothetica" and "Every Good Man is Free".

Philo's Hypothetica

Quote:

... But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness. And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous communities.

Philo's Every Good Man is Free

Quote:

... Moreover Palestine and Syria too are not barren of exemplary wisdom and virtue, which countries no slight portion of that most populous nation of the Jews inhabits. There is a portion of those people called Essenes, in number something more than four thousand in my opinion...

Again, Philo's claim that the Essenes were Jews and of Jewish origin is corroborated by Josephus, a CONTEMPORARY of the Essenes.

Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 18.1.2

Quote:

2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees.

In the History of the Jews and ALL the works attributed to Josephus NO Sect of the Jews were identified as Therapeutae.

The Therapeutae in the writings of Philo were NOT described as Jews and of Jewish origin.

There were Therapeutae from Egypt in Philo's "On the Contemplative Life".

Quote:

Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt...

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 09:48 AM

Yes but the Therapeutai are directly linked to the Essaioi who are specifically Jewish and spread across the world in the manner of the Therapeutai. The Therapeutai then are a type of Essaioi who are a Jewish sect, therefore the Therapeutai are Jewish. This is not 'my POV' but everyone's in the real world of academia. Only in this parallel crazy world reality is there any question about what Philo is saying.

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 09:52 AM

There isn't one person among les moches here who can offer a coherent counter-argument. It's just 'he doesn't say they are specifically Jewish.' But as I have illustrated, Philo went through literary phases where he did not mention the word Jewish. There is clearly a pagan audience reading his material. Perhaps he deliberately avoided the 'J' word because of persecutions in Alexandria. The context however is clearly Jewish.

Clivedurdle · 01-23-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Do you really think there would have been people reading Christian texts in Greek at the time of Philo (died c.50 CE) ?

Quote:

celsus did.

Quote:

Celsus (Greek: Κέλσος) was a 2nd century Greek philosopher and opponent of Early Christianity. He is known for his literary work, The True Word (Account, Doctrine or Discourse) (Λόγος Ἀληθής), written about by Origen. This work, c. 177[1] is the earliest known comprehensive attack on Christianity.

Wiki

Have I misunderstood something?

stephan huller · 01-23-2013, 10:44 AM

Celsus read Christian texts. He was familiar with divisions and features of Christian worship. So too his friend Lucian.

aa5874 · 01-23-2013, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Yes but the Therapeutai are directly linked to the Essaioi who are specifically Jewish and spread across the world in the manner of the Therapeutai. The Therapeutai then are a type of Essaioi who are a Jewish sect, therefore the Therapeutai are Jewish. This is not 'my POV' but everyone's in the real world of academia. Only in this parallel crazy world reality is there any question about what Philo is saying.

Your claim that the Therapeutae are directly linked to Essaioi is completely erroneous.

When Philo mentioned the Essenes in "Hypothetica" and "All Good Men are Free" he made ZERO--NIL--NO mention of the Therapeutae.

In fact, the ONLY time the Therapeutae are mentioned and Located in Egypt is in ONE text "On the Contemplative Life".

No Jew has been identified as a Therapeutae in the writings of Philo or Josephus who wrote the History of the Jews up to c 92 CE.

I do not accept your imagination as evidence so please stop wasting time.

Philo DIRECTLY LINKED the Essenes to JUDEA and DIRECTLY LINKED the Therapeutae to EGYPT.

Philo's Hypothetica

Quote:

But our lawgiver trained an innumerable body of his pupils to partake in those things, who are called Essenes, being, as I imagine, honoured with this appellation because of their exceeding holiness. And they dwell in many cities of Judaea, and in many villages, and in great and populous..

Philo's On the Contemplative Life

Quote:

Philo's Now this class of persons may be met with in many places, for it was fitting that both Greece and the country of the barbarians should partake of whatever is perfectly good; and there is the greatest number of such men in Egypt...

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01-23-2013, 07:26 AM	#344
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	celsus did. there must have been others. also you are quoting momigliano out of context. he's not saying Philo wasn't a Jew. Even crazy old you has never said that. you still have nothing. keep looking. and as i have demonstrated they weren't Ascelapian. you can't just attack the obvious interpretation of the material

01-23-2013, 09:48 AM	#346
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yes but the Therapeutai are directly linked to the Essaioi who are specifically Jewish and spread across the world in the manner of the Therapeutai. The Therapeutai then are a type of Essaioi who are a Jewish sect, therefore the Therapeutai are Jewish. This is not 'my POV' but everyone's in the real world of academia. Only in this parallel crazy world reality is there any question about what Philo is saying.

01-23-2013, 09:52 AM	#347
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	There isn't one person among les moches here who can offer a coherent counter-argument. It's just 'he doesn't say they are specifically Jewish.' But as I have illustrated, Philo went through literary phases where he did not mention the word Jewish. There is clearly a pagan audience reading his material. Perhaps he deliberately avoided the 'J' word because of persecutions in Alexandria. The context however is clearly Jewish.

01-23-2013, 10:44 AM	#349
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Celsus read Christian texts. He was familiar with divisions and features of Christian worship. So too his friend Lucian.

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