Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 12-25-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The word Giant is translated from the Hebrew word Nephilim. And also it is said Giants lived before and after the flood.

No it isn't said, it's clearly stated in Jubilees that all Nephilim perished in the flood sent by God, for just such a purpose to destroy the wicked. You are the only person who says that. Judaism, Catholicism, Anglicanism and just about every other religion including Eastern Orthodox and or other Orthodox takes the OT at it's word? You can't just make stuff up, it's bad form.

The book of Jubilees is a non canonical book not excepted by Judasim. It is seen as a work of pseudo history. So your argument that this is a excepted belief of Judasim is wrong.

The bible texts (the ones based on the canonical books) says the Nephilim existed before and after the flood...not only me.

The Dagda · 12-25-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

No it isn't said, it's clearly stated in Jubilees that all Nephilim perished in the flood sent by God, for just such a purpose to destroy the wicked. You are the only person who says that. Judaism, Catholicism, Anglicanism and just about every other religion including Eastern Orthodox and or other Orthodox takes the OT at it's word? You can't just make stuff up, it's bad form.

The book of Jubilees is a non canonical book not excepted by Judasim. It is seen as a work of pseudo history. So your argument that this is a excepted belief of Judasim is wrong.

The bible texts (the ones based on the canonical books) says the Nephilim existed before and after the flood...not only me.

It's a Jewish book, made by Jews for Jews. I don't personally see that canonical means anything more than not available at the Nicean council in this case, or to Jews, but there you go.

The canon of all other faiths says that the nephilim were wiped out in the flood. The Jews themselves say that comparing the Canaanites is the result of a lack of faith, and a misunderstanding. So I fail to see what you are saying. If Genesis is your only proof then they died in the flood by logic, as all but Noah and his immediate family and friends survived, end of story.

sugarhitman · 12-25-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The book of Jubilees is a non canonical book not excepted by Judasim. It is seen as a work of pseudo history. So your argument that this is a excepted belief of Judasim is wrong.

The bible texts (the ones based on the canonical books) says the Nephilim existed before and after the flood...not only me.

It's a Jewish book, made by Jews for Jews. I don't personally see that canonical means anything more than not available at the Nicean council in this case, or to Jews, but there you go.

The canon of all other faiths says that the nephilim were wiped out in the flood. The Jews themselves say that comparing the Canaanites is the result of a lack of faith, and a misunderstanding. So I fail to see what you are saying. If Genesis is your only proof then they died in the flood by logic, as all but Noah and his immediate family and friends survived, end of story.

What im saying is that the JEWS did not include this book in their canon because it is a work of *pseudo-history* and it conflicts with the Torah, the writings of Moses. You are making it appear that the book of Jubilees is accepted by the Majority of Judasim when it is not. "The canon of all other faiths" what exactly is your point? The book of Jubilees is not based on Jewish canon which is why it is not apart of the Hebrew bible nor the KJV.

The Dagda · 12-25-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

It's a Jewish book, made by Jews for Jews. I don't personally see that canonical means anything more than not available at the Nicean council in this case, or to Jews, but there you go.

The canon of all other faiths says that the nephilim were wiped out in the flood. The Jews themselves say that comparing the Canaanites is the result of a lack of faith, and a misunderstanding. So I fail to see what you are saying. If Genesis is your only proof then they died in the flood by logic, as all but Noah and his immediate family and friends survived, end of story.

What im saying is that the JEWS did not include this book in their canon because it is a work of *pseudo-history* and it conflicts with the Torah, the writings of Moses. You are making it appear that the book of Jubilees is accepted by the Majority of Judasim when it is not. "The canon of all other faiths" what exactly is your point? The book of Jubilees is not based on Jewish canon which is why it is not apart of the Hebrew bible nor the KJV.

I didn't say that, what I said is that the Jews believe that the Nephilim all died in the flood, as do all the other faiths.

Genesis is antediluvian in terms of the Nephilim, thus it's pretty incontrovertible that they all died.

wordy · 12-25-2008, 11:06 AM

Giants, are they referring to Neandertals?
they have found bones from them?

But they lived incredibly far away in time.
Would a memory of them still be with humans?

There are no Giants, it is myths in the Bible.

The Dagda · 12-25-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wordy

Giants, are they referring to Neandertals?

There are no Giants, it is myths in the Bible.

No Neanderthals were shorter than us.

Apparently not myths in some circles? Faith is a strange thing...

sugarhitman · 12-25-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

What im saying is that the JEWS did not include this book in their canon because it is a work of *pseudo-history* and it conflicts with the Torah, the writings of Moses. You are making it appear that the book of Jubilees is accepted by the Majority of Judasim when it is not. "The canon of all other faiths" what exactly is your point? The book of Jubilees is not based on Jewish canon which is why it is not apart of the Hebrew bible nor the KJV.

I didn't say that, what I said is that the Jews believe that the Nephilim all died in the flood, as do all the other faiths.

Genesis is antediluvian in terms of the Nephilim, thus it's pretty incontrovertible that they all died.

When you say "the Jews" you are saying most if not all which is not true because their own CANONICAL book says the Nephalim lived before and after the flood. If they do believe this (they don't) then they are going against their own scriptures.

The Dagda · 12-25-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

I didn't say that, what I said is that the Jews believe that the Nephilim all died in the flood, as do all the other faiths.

Genesis is antediluvian in terms of the Nephilim, thus it's pretty incontrovertible that they all died.

When you say "the Jews" you are saying most if not all which is not true because their own CANONICAL book says the Nephalim lived before and after the flood. If they do believe this (they don't) then they are going against their own scriptures.

No they are saying that those who attacked the Canaanites are mistaken about their origins, that's what they believe.

Quote:

Anakim

Anakim (or Anakites) are the descendants of Anak, and dwelt in the south of Canaan, in the neighbourhood of Hebron. In the days of Abraham, they inhabited the region afterwards known as Edom and Moab, east of the Jordan river. They are mentioned during the report of the spies about the inhabitants of the land of Canaan. The book of Joshua states that Joshua finally expelled them from the land, excepting a remnant that found a refuge in the cities of Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. The Philistine giant Goliath, whom David[19] later encountered, was supposedly a descendant of the Anakim.
“ The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.[20] ”

It is more commonly suggested by traditional Jewish sources (such as the Midrash) that the spies saw large and powerful inhabitants in Canaan and because of their own fears, cowardice, and inadequate faith in Yahweh, saw themselves as grasshoppers in the eyes of the Canaanites, whether they were actual 'giants' or not.

That's how they deal with the seeming contradiction that only Noah and his family survived in Genesis. It's a logical impossibility.

sugarhitman · 12-25-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

When you say "the Jews" you are saying most if not all which is not true because their own CANONICAL book says the Nephalim lived before and after the flood. If they do believe this (they don't) then they are going against their own scriptures.

No they are saying that those who attacked the Canaanites are mistaken about their origins, that's what they believe.

Quote:

Anakim

Anakim (or Anakites) are the descendants of Anak, and dwelt in the south of Canaan, in the neighbourhood of Hebron. In the days of Abraham, they inhabited the region afterwards known as Edom and Moab, east of the Jordan river. They are mentioned during the report of the spies about the inhabitants of the land of Canaan. The book of Joshua states that Joshua finally expelled them from the land, excepting a remnant that found a refuge in the cities of Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. The Philistine giant Goliath, whom David[19] later encountered, was supposedly a descendant of the Anakim.
“ The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.[20] ”

It is more commonly suggested by traditional Jewish sources (such as the Midrash) that the spies saw large and powerful inhabitants in Canaan and because of their own fears, cowardice, and inadequate faith in Yahweh, saw themselves as grasshoppers in the eyes of the Canaanites, whether they were actual 'giants' or not.

That's how they deal with the seeming contradiction that only Noah and his family survived in Genesis. It's a logical impossibility.

Their own HEBREW CANONICAL BOOK says the Nephilim lived after the flood. Moses and Joshua both decribed these people as GIANTS....the Nephilim. This is what the texts says.

The Dagda · 12-25-2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

No they are saying that those who attacked the Canaanites are mistaken about their origins, that's what they believe.

That's how they deal with the seeming contradiction that only Noah and his family survived in Genesis. It's a logical impossibility.

Their own HEBREW CANONICAL BOOK says the Nephilim lived after the flood. Moses and Joshua both decribed these people as GIANTS....the Nephilim. This is what the texts says.

This is not what they believe, they believe their texts were based on a failure to believe in Yahweh. Do you honestly think that all religions think that genesis is of debatable accuracy and it says they all died by logic. The Jews, the Catholics or the Christians think that the Nephilim were not only non existent but they didn't survive the flood whatever they were, it's only the minority of fundamentalists, and they are let's face it grasping at straws that believe otherwise. I can't convince you of this because you've been told by idiots to believe something that no other faith believes. Therefore rather than come into line with the popular front, you'd rather believe everyone else is wrong. Such is fundamentalism. Good luck with that. And the rapture, and all the other non canonical nonsense.

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12-25-2008, 11:06 AM	#95
wordy Contributor Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden, Europe Posts: 12,091	Giants, are they referring to Neandertals? they have found bones from them? But they lived incredibly far away in time. Would a memory of them still be with humans? There are no Giants, it is myths in the Bible.

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