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Old 10-17-2005, 09:29 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judge
The only idea I have is that in the west when protestantism challenged Roman Catholicism they rejected the authority of Rome. As a result they needed their own authority.
Thereofre they turned the bible into some kind of authoritative document in an even greater way than it had been.
This may have led to current ideas?
I think this is on the right track. Protestants set up the Bible as the one and only authority for their doctrine. Problem is people are fallible and will come away with many different interpretations. Hence, the reason there are thousands of different Protestant denominations.

The Bible was never intended to be the one and only authority for doctrine. The NT came together in the first few centuries of the Church. If I understand correctly, it came together as a result of many Christians writings circulating amongst churches and questions started to come up as to which ones were the right ones to be used in the Church. Through a long process and much debate, the Church finally settled on the 27 books of the NT as representing orthodox Christianity.

This did not mean that suddenly these 27 books were the one and only authority. The Church is the final authority, as it was instituted by Jesus and he promised it to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 10-17-2005, 11:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judge
The only idea I have is that in the west when protestantism challenged Roman Catholicism they rejected the authority of Rome. As a result they needed their own authority.
Thereofre they turned the bible into some kind of authoritative document in an even greater way than it had been.
This may have led to current ideas?
I think this is pretty accurate... "Sola Scriptura" and all. Additionally, from what I understand, Fundamentalism is an early 20th century reaction against Neo-Orthodoxy (which was a reaction against 19th century Liberal Christianity, which was a reaction against Deism, which was a reaction to... screw it.)

But I think judge is probably right for the origins of such thinking.
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Old 10-17-2005, 12:52 PM   #13
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Other psychological factors...

How many of you have ever felt personally attacked when someone questioned or challenged your atheism, naturalism, and such? Were you ever offended by someone saying something or using something related to Christianity in their life or expression that obviously stood in contradiction to your own life and claims? I'm sure many of you have. Love is the law, as a 1st century rabbi said it. And we all want that, so we tend to feel unloved, frustrated, disturbed, whatever, when that love is not displayed. We also tend to identify ourselves with our beliefs, hopes, and so forth--the more so the stronger those beliefs, hopes, and such are.

So Christians are no different. For whatever reason, they come to believe scripture is error free and literal and it comes to mean something very personal and important to them. Then when someone comes along and starts poking at it, it feels like someone is poking at them. It doesn't seem like love to them any more than when a Christian says they want to pray for you.

So what is the response? Well, just look in these forums and you'll see people wanting to know how to respond to Christians who say they'll pray for you... These atheists are looking for a way to authenticate themselves in the midst of something else that seems (or may in fact be) unloving. This is no different than some of these Christians. Someone comes against their important beliefs, hopes, etc, and causes them to feel unloved or disturbed. So they do as the atheists here in these forums did--they seek ways to authenticate themselves, which obviously includes substantiating and perhaps guarding their beliefs.
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Old 10-17-2005, 03:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B
For most christians, I don't think it is important that the whole bible be literally true. The Catholic Church has just released a teaching document which states explicitly that some parts ain't true, for example.
Do you have a reference for this statement? I'm discussing Genesis with a Catholic creationist and it would be most useful to know what the Catholic Church's teaching is about this.
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Old 10-18-2005, 12:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Elphick
Do you have a reference for this statement? I'm discussing Genesis with a Catholic creationist and it would be most useful to know what the Catholic Church's teaching is about this.
See this thread in the E/C Forum:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=139581
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Old 10-18-2005, 02:28 AM   #16
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This might help...from the website of JF Allward
"The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28.


Edited to add:
After posting this I thought i'd go and read the relevant document.
I can't find it...not even sure it exists...the letters of Augustine, 100s of them are all numbered and that's no help.
Can anyone put me on target please?
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Old 10-18-2005, 11:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yalla
This might help...from the website of JF Allward
"The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28.


Edited to add:
After posting this I thought i'd go and read the relevant document.
I can't find it...not even sure it exists...the letters of Augustine, 100s of them are all numbered and that's no help.
Can anyone put me on target please?
Letters of Augustine Letter 28 (XXVIII) to Jerome
Quote:
I have been reading also some writings, ascribed to you, on the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. In reading your exposition of the Epistle to the Galatians, that passage came to my hand in which the Apostle Peter is called back from a course of dangerous dissimulation. To find there the defence of falsehood undertaken, whether by you, a man of such weight, or by any author (if it is the writing of another), causes me, I must confess, great sorrow, until at least those things which decide my opinion in the matter are refuted, if indeed they admit of refutation. For it seems to me that most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books: that is to say, that the men by whom the Scripture has been given to us, and committed to writing, did put down in these books anything false. It is one question whether it may be at any time the duty of a good man to deceive; but it is another question whether it can have been the duty of a writer of Holy Scripture to deceive: nay, it is not another question-it is no question at all. For if you once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement as made in the way of duty, there will not be left a single sentence of those books which, if appearing to any one difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away, as a statement in which, intentionally, and under a sense of duty, the author declared what was not true.
Augustine is not concerned here with errors in Scripture in the sense of mistakes but with opposing the idea that Scripture could contain passages which deliberately mislead us for our own good.

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