dog-on

I didn't ask you to count followers. According to the evidence, Jesus was famous, or infamous among countless throngs of people and definitely not portrayed as a minor character. So the number of followers in Acts is kind of irrelevant to my question.

Additionally, I did not ask for negative evidence, as sometimes the absence of evidence is actually evidence of absence.

I asked specifically for positive evidence that contradicts the positive evidence supplied by the texts themselves.

(Something to help you, or maybe not so much. Consider Tacitus, and your old buddy Josephus, etc. etc. etc.)

dog-on

I did say recognized or not...

archibald

Well, it shouldn't be. If it was the case, it's an indication that he was comparatively minor, in the sense of not having many followers. Theudas had over 400, apparently, and I think, unless I'm mistaken there was supposedly another one, lost to history apart from a brief mention in Josephus, who had upwards of a thousand. Don't quote me on the source. I'd need to check.

archibald

This is a fun game. I must try it on someone else sometime. Let me see if I get the rules right. So, you ask somebody what they think about something. If they say they are agnostic about it, you invite them to speculate...and then you accuse them of making assumptions. You should market this quick. Catch the Christmas market.

dog-on

Please, leave goal posts where they are. Charles Manson did not have nearly as many followers...

dog-on

I asked you what evidence leads you to claim that Jesus was a minor figure when the only evidence we have, for Jesus, contradicts that assertion.

I am not asking for your opinion. I am asking for you to produce the evidence upon which your assertion is based.

archibald

Oh, I get it. You have to take mind-altering substances before you play the game. Sorry about that. 'Fraid I'm lucid right now. Does that spoil it for you? If it does, you lot could just play without me.

dog-on

So the answer is: ????

Thought so.

Toto

This is not a canard. It is an observation backed up by evidence, valid for many known and identifiable scholars.

You claim that you do not assume historicity, but you can't come up with any rational evidence and you get all emotional and huffy when this is pointed out.

jakejonesiv

Archibald,

I thought you were a serious guy, but you have to be joking.

So I am putting on the Limbo music, and I am ready to see how low you can go. Get ready, because you have your work cut out for you.


Matthew 4:24
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Matthew 9:26
And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.

Matthew 9:31
But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.

Matthew 14:1
At that time Herod the tetrarch heard of the fame of Jesus,

Mark 1:28
And immediately his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee.

Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

Luke 4:37
And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.

Luke 5:15
But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.


1.Matthew 4:25
And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

Matthew 5:1
And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Matthew 8:1
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.

Matthew 8:18
Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side.

Matthew 9:8
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Matthew 9:33
And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Matthew 9:36
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

Matthew 11:7
And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?

Matthew 12:15
But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Matthew 13:2
And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.


Matthew 14:5
And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

Matthew 14:14
And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matthew 14:15
And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals.

Matthew 14:19
And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

Matthew 14:21
And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.

Matthew 15:38
And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.

Matthew 14:22
And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.

Matthew 15:30
And great multitudes came unto him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus' feet; and he healed them:

Matthew 15:31
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

Matthew 15:32
Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.

Matthew 15:33
And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?

Matthew 15:35
And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground.

Matthew 15:36
And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

Matthew 15:39
And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala.

Matthew 19:2
And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

Matthew 20:29
And as they departed from Jericho, a great multitude followed him.

Matthew 20:31
And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

Matthew 21:8
And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way.

Matthew 21:9
And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.

Matthew 21:11
And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Matthew 21:46
But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Matthew 22:33
And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

Matthew 23:1
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,


Matthew 27:20
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

Matthew 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Mark 2:13
And he went forth again by the sea side; and all the multitude resorted unto him, and he taught them.

Mark 3:7
But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea,

Mark 3:8
And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.

Mark 3:9
And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.

Mark 3:20
And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread.


Mark 4:1
And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.

Mark 4:36
And when they had sent away the multitude, they took him even as he was in the ship. And there were also with him other little ships.

Mark 5:31
And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?

Mark 6:44
And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.

Mark 7:33
And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;

Mark 8:1
In those days the multitude being very great, and having nothing to eat, Jesus called his disciples unto him, and saith unto them,

Mark 8:2
I have compassion on the multitude, because they have now been with me three days, and have nothing to eat:

Mark 8:9
And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.

Mark 9:14
And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them, and the scribes questioning with them.

Mark 9:17
And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;


Mark 15:8
And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.


Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 5:15
But so much the more went there a fame abroad of him: and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities.


Luke 6:17
And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people out of all Judaea and Jerusalem, and from the sea coast of Tyre and Sidon, which came to hear him, and to be healed of their diseases;

Luke 6:19
And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed them all.

Luke 8:37
Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.


Luke 9:12
And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we are here in a desert place.

Luke 9:16
Then he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed them, and brake, and gave to the disciples to set before the multitude.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

Luke 14:25
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,


Luke 22:6
And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.


John 6:2
And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.