Kapyong

Gday,

Yup, when I saw Remsberg's list I was dissappointed in how bare it was - no dates, no details. So I made a new list with more information, I have tried to be comprehensive because the whole point is how many writers there were.


Kapyong

Kapyong

Gday,

Well, it wasn't 'invented' from thin air. Paul started it - from visions apparently. Then G.Mark posted his masterpiece of literature based on Paul and on the Tanakh - it didn't come from no-where.

And there are several generations between the alleged Jesus and the belief in a historical Jesus - it happened in several stages over quite a period, interspersed with two wars with the Romans.

By the time the story spread, it was long after the time of Jesus, and Paul.


Kapyong

Kapyong

Gday,

There are about two dozen Christian writings before Irenaeus which could have mentioned Jesus' parents.

After Irenaeus many writings do just that - but the many early writings have no historical details - a surprising silence.


K.

Kapyong

Gday all,

I have added dates to the names, and adjusted details from spin's helpful comments.


WRITERS WHO SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS

PHILO (20 BCE - 50 CE)

Philo Judaeus wrote very many books about Jewish religion and history in the 30s and 40s of the 1st C. CE, lived in Alexandria, and visited Jerusalem.

• Philo was contemporary with Jesus and Paul,
• Philo visited Jerusalem and had family there,
• he developed the concept of the Logos and the holy spirit,
• he was considered a Christian by some later Christians,
• he wrote a great deal about related times and peoples and issues.

If Jesus had existed, Philo would almost certainly have written about him and his teachings.

Rating: SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 5


WRITERS WHO PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS

SENECA (4 BCE - 65 CE)

Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.

Seneca wrote a great deal on many subjects and mentioned many people. He was a Stoic, a school of thought considered sympathetic to Christian teachings.

In fact,
early Christians seemed to have expected him to discuss Christianity - they FORGED letters between him and Paul.

How else to explain these forgeries, except as Christian responses to a surprising VOID in Seneca's writings?

Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4


PLUTARCH (c. 46 CE - 120 CE)

Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia in about 90-120 CE.

• Plutarch wrote about influential Roman figures, including some contemporary to Jesus,
• Plutarch wrote on Oracles (prophesies),
• Plutarch wrote on moral issues,
• Plutarch wrote on spiritual and religious issues.

If Plutarch knew of Jesus or the Gospel events, it is highly likely he would have mentioned them.

Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus or his teachings, but did not.
Weight: 4


JUSTUS (late 1st C.)

Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of Jewish Kings in Galilee in late 1st century.

Photius read Justus in the 8th century and noted that he did not mention anything: "He (Justus of Tiberias) makes not one mention of Jesus, of what happened to him, or of the wonderful works that he did."

It is surprising that a contemporary writer from the very region of Jesus' alleged acts did not mention him.

Rating: PROBABLY SHOULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 3


JUVENAL (late 1st C. - early 2nd C.)

Decimus Junius Juvenalis wrote sixteen satires in Rome in early 2nd century.

Lucian the Roman satirist DID ridicule Christians (as gullible, easily lead fools) in mid 2nd century. By the later time of Lucian, Christianity obviously was known to the wider Roman community. Whereas Juvenal wrote at a time when Christianity had only just started to rate a few tiny mentions (Pliny the Younger, Tacitus.)

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 3



WRITERS WHO COULD HAVE MENTIONED JESUS


DAMIS (mid 1st C. - early 2nd C.)

Damis apparently wrote most of what we know about Apollonius of Tyana who was a philosopher and mystic exactly contemporary with Jesus, and who was rather similar to Jesus - enough for some authors to argue they were one and the same person.

If Damis/Apollonius had known of Jesus, he could have easily have been mentioned as a competitor. A story in which Apollonius bested Jesus in debate would not be un-expected.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


PLINY THE ELDER (23 CE - 79 CE)

Gaius Plinius Secundus wrote a large Natural History in Rome c.70CE

Pliny wrote a great deal - his Natural History mentions HUNDREDS of people, major & minor - writers, leaders, poets, artists - often with as much reason as mentioning Jesus. (Of course like many other writers he talks about astronomy too, but never mentions the Star of Bethlehem or the darkness.)

It is not at all un-reasoble for this prolific writer to have mentioned Jesus or the Gospels events.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


MARTIAL (40 CE - c. 103 CE)

Marcus Valerius Martialus wrote satires in Rome in late 1st century.

Martial wrote a large body of poems about all sorts of things. He mentions many people, places, stories and issues - major and minor, within and without Rome, such as :

• Stoic suffering of discomfort and death,
• virgin's blood,
• Roman funerary practices,
• the way accused men look in court,
• Roman soldiers mocking their leaders,
• anointing the body with oil,
• Molorchus the good shepherd,
• Tutilius a minor rhetorician, Nestor the wise,
• the (ugly) Temple of Jupiter,

This shows Martial mentions or alludes to many and varied people and issues.

He could easily have mentioned Jesus (or the Gospel events).

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


PETRONIUS (c. 27 CE - 66 CE)

Gaius Petronius Arbiter or Titus Petronius wrote a large novel (a bawdy drama) the "Satyricon" c.60CE.

Petronius mentions all sorts of people and events in this large work, including :

• a CRUCIFIXION !
• a scene where guards are posted to stop a corpse being stolen,
• a tomb scene of someone mistaking a person for a supernatural vision,
• gods such as Bacchus and Ceres,
• writers such as Sophocles and Euripides and Epicurus,
• books such as the Iliad,
• Romans such as Cato and Pompey,
• people such as Hannibal, and the Governor of Ephesus,
• female charioteers, slaves, merchants, Arabs, lawyers
• baths, shipwrecks, meals...

This large work, cover MANY topics, including a CRUCIFIXION, and it was written just as Peter and Paul had come to Rome, allegedly. It could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


PAUSANIAS (2nd C.)

Pausanias wrote the massive Guide to Greece in mid 2nd century.

Pausanias' work is vast and the index covers over 70 pages of small print, I estimate a couple of THOUSAND names are mentioned. He mentions a large number of minor figues from within and without Greece.

He even mentions a Jewish prophetess - a figure so minor she is essentially unknown: "Then later than Demo there was a prophetic woman reared among the Jews beyond Palestine; her name was Sabbe." Phokis, Book X, 12, [5]

Pausanias also mentions the Jewish rebellion under Hadrian.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


EPICTETUS (55 CE - 135 CE)

Epictetus is known for several books of Stoic religious and philosophic discourses in the early 2nd century. One of his disciples was Arrian, and thanks to him much of Epictetus' works are extant.

Epictetus DID apparently mention "the Galileans", which could be a reference to :

• the early Christians, OR
• the revolt under Judas the Galilean in early 1st century.

Either way, this shows quite clearly that Epictetus could refer to a figure such as Jesus.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


PERSIUS (34 CE - 62 CE)

Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote six fairly long satires in Rome in the mid 1st century, of a rather philosophic nature.

The argument that no Roman satirist could be expected to mention Jesus, is proven wrong by the case of a Roman satirist who DID mention Jesus (but only as echoes of later Christian beliefs.)

Persius wrote a reasonably large body of work that mentions many people and issues.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 2


AELIUS ARISTIDES (117 CE - 181 CE)

Aelius Aristides the mid 2nd century Greek Orator spoke and wrote a History of Rome and other subjects - he seems to refer to the Christians as "impious men from Palestine" (Orations 46.2)

If he could mention people from Palestine, he could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


FRONTO (c. 100 CE - 170 CE)

Marcus Cornelius Fronto of Rome wrote several letters in mid 2nd century.

According to Minucius Felix, he scandalised rites practiced by Roman Christians - so he could easily have mentioned Jesus.

Rating: COULD easily have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


DIO CHRYSOSTOM (c. 40CE - c. 120 CE)

Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio, or Dion Prusa) wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres in late 1st century, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.

Dio wrote a large number of works in the late 1st century - he certainly could have mentioned Jesus, if he knew of him.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


MARCUS AURELIUS (c. 212 CE - 180 CE)

Marcus Aelius Aurelius Antoninus wrote the Stoic Meditations in mid 2nd century - he (apparently) refers once to the Christians in XI, 3.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


HIEROCLES (2nd C.)

Hierocles of Alexandria wrote on Stoic philosophy in late 1st century.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


MAXIMUS of TYRE (2nd C. CE)

Cassius Maximus Tyrius, a Greek NeoPlatonic philosopher, wrote many works in mid 2nd century.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 1


MUSONIUS RUFUS (1st C. CE)

C. Musonius Rufus views on Stoic philosophy in Rome were collected in mid 1st century.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


LUCIUS APULEIUS (c. 125 CE - c. 180 CE)

Lucius Apuleius wrote the Metamorphoses in mid-late 2nd C. (the Golden Ass or Transformations of Lucius) and many other spiritual, historical, and philosophic works - several survive.

Rating: COULD have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


AULUS GELLIUS (c. 125 CE - c. 180 CE)

Aulus Gellius wrote Attic Nights (Nights in Athens) in mid-late 2nd C., a large compendium of many topics and which mentioned many people.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


ARRIAN (c. 86 CE - 160 CE)

Arrian wrote a History of Alexander c.120CE.

The subject is not related, but Arrian wrote a very large work which mentioned HUNDREDS of people, some not from Alexander's time.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


APPIAN (c. 95 CE - c. 165 CE)

Appian wrote a large Roman History (from the Gracchi to Caesar) in mid 2nd century.

It's not particularly likely that this specific writer would mention Jesus.
But,
he wrote a LARGE work which mentions HUNDREDS of people.
Appian does mention some issues of HIS day (mid 2nd century), e.g. a decision by Hadrian.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


THEON of SMYRNA (fl. 100 CE)

Theon of Smyrna wrote on astronomy/philosophy in early 2nd century.

Theon wrote about philosophy. If Jesus and his teachings were known, it is entirely plausible for to mention them.

Theon also wrote about astronomy.
If he had heard about the Star of Bethlehem or the Darkness (as an event, or from the Gospels) he could easily have mentioned it.

Apologists frequently cite Phlegon and Thallus, astronomers who mentioned eclipses (but NOT Jesus or the Gospel events, that is merely later Christian wishful thinking) as evidence for Jesus.

An astronomer could easily be expected to mention those incidents, especially when apologists claim other astronomers of the period did exactly that.

The silence of early astronomers about the Star of Bethlehem or the crucifixion darkness argues these "events" were unknown until later.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


QUINTILIAN (c. 35 CE - c. 100 CE)

Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the "Education of an Orator" in Rome in late 1st century.

One of the things Jesus was allegedly noted for was his PUBLIC SPEECHES - e.g. the Sermon on the Mount, which supposedly drew and influenced large crowds.

If Quintilian had heard of Jesus or the Gospels events, he could have mentioned the allegedly famous speeches of Jesus.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5



LUCIUS ANNAEUS FLORUS (late 1st C. CE - early 2nd C. CE)

Lucius Annaeus Florus wrote an Epitome of Roman History.

Although not directly on subject, Florus wrote a large work which mentions many names. He could have mentioned Jesus if he had known of him.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5



LUCAN (39 CE - 65 CE)

Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome in mid 1st century.

In his large poem, the Pharsalia, he mentions some events from later times, and he covers many different issues and people in passing.
He:

• mentions an event from 56CE,
• refers to places as far afield as Sicily and Kent,
• refered to Stoic religious beliefs about the end of the world,
• refers to many books and myths and persons and events not part of the main story.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


STATIUS (c. 45 CE - c. 96 CE)

Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous minor and epic poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome in late 1st century.

Statius wrote many works on several subjects, he could have mentioned Jesus.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


HERO of ALEXANDRIA (c. 10 CE - c. 70 CE)

Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy in mid-late 1st C.

If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


GEMINUS (fl. 1st C. CE)

Geminus wrote on mathematics astronomy in Greece in 1st C. CE.

If he had known of the Gospel stories about Jesus, he could have mentioned them.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


ALBINUS (fl. c. 150 CE)

Albinus taught on (neo-)Platonism in early 2nd century, a little survives.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


ARISTOCLES (1st C. CE)

Aristocles of Messene wrote On Philosophy, late 1st century.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


APOLLODORUS (1st C. CE?)

Pseudo Apollodorus compiled a large Mythology in mid 2nd century.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


HEPHAESTION (2nd C. CE)

Hephaestion of Alexandria wrote many works in mid 2nd century.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5


SEXTUS EMPIRICUS (c. 160 CE - 210 CE)

Sextus Empiricus wrote Outlines of Scepticism in late 2nd century.

Rating: COULD possibly have mentioned Jesus, but did not.
Weight: 0.5



WRITERS WHO COULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO MENTION JESUS

Paterculus
Ptolemy
Valerius Maximus
Pomponius Mela
Quintus Curtus Rufus
Lucius Junius Moderatus Columella
Favorinus
Phaedrus
Babrius
Silius Italicus
Marcus Manilius
Cleomedes
Dioscorides
Sextus Julius Frontinus
Nicomachus of Gerasa
Menelaus of Alexandria
Menodotus of Nicomedia
Tiberius Claudius Herodes Atticus
Valerius Flaccus

Will Wiley

Where would you think it should be? Which of these writings should mention it?

This is just an argument from personal incredulity. You insist it is surprising, but you yourself asserting it is surprising does not involve any kind of rational argument.

Will Wiley

Why? Why should Philo have mentioned him?

So? Why would this mean he would mention them?
So? Why would this mean he would mention him? There were many people in jerusalem, what are your assumptions about Jesus that mean that Philo should have mentioned him?
This is just wrong, jews had a concept of a "memra" long before and of a holy spirit. But even so why would this mean he should mention Jesus?
So? Why would that mean he should mention Jesus?

You have given some very shallow "reasons" but nothing approaching anything that would convince even a mildly sceptical person yet IMO.

Will Wiley

Ok, we are all time poor to some degree.
I think some of what you are saying is nonsense, but I may be wrong, but merely asserting it wont convince me, evidence might. You seem determined to just assert things and supply no evidence. I feel quite within my rights here to request that you back up assertions with evidence.

Vorkosigan

You keep saying this argument from personal incredulity, but I do not think it means what you think it means.

To spare us further time-wasting, have you actually read Doherty's discussion of the Pauline silence issue?

Vorkosigan

Logical

How do you know that?

Will Wiley

It does as far as Kapyongs argument goes. If you wish to claim Kapyong is not arguing from personal incredulity then by all means provide your case.