aa5874

Please supply the historical sources for YOUR BELIEF about Jesus of the NT.

Whether Rebbe was believed to be a Messiah or God himself has NO value as evidence for the ORIGIN of Jesus.

The Rebbe was believed to be a Messiah. So what?

The Rebbe was a Jew. So what?

The Rebbe could NOT REMIT the Sins of Jews. So what?

The Rebbe did NOT RESURRECT on the third day. So what?

The Rebbe did NOT CLAIM he would be coming on the Clouds of heaven. So what?

The Rebbe has NO bearing at all on the ORIGIN of Jesus.

This is the ORIGIN of Jesus in the NT.

Matthew 1.18 If you have another source for the ORIGIN of Jesus then SIMPLY provide the source.

We are not discussing the ORIGIN of the Rebbe. I don't even know or care if your Rebbe did exist.

Just Get a credible historical for the ORIGIN of Jesus.

Toto

But why would that myth spread to people outside the cult? It hasn't with Scheerson or any other cult leader that I can think of.

spamandham

I agree. Actually, this is my favorite Jesus speculation (aka 'theory' in historical jesus studies parlance). It seems to me that the gospel Jesus evolved from an earlier teaching that the very concept of messiah was completely and utterly (crucified, which also means 'humiliated' as Paul demonstrates by his usage of the word) destroyed when the temple fell.

The cross symbol originated as simply a 'stake in the ground' (later transliterated into 'cross' as Christianity melded with sun worship) indicating the strength of this proclamation.

"The messiah concept died with a stake in the ground" transformed into "The messiah was crucified on a cross" over time, with "Jesus" (the salvation of YHWH) being the usual name for the messiah. The Pauline sect took this further and twisted the idea of "savior" - originally meant as a political savior who would bring the political nation of Israel to dominance - to mean "some magic dude who obliterates death". This was merged with a pre-existing baptism ritual, which accounts for the 'anointing' - aka 'christ. The baptism also symbolizes rebirth, which gets construed into resurrection.

So in the end we get a crucified on a stake anointed savior who's dies and is resurrected....and then the gospel writers step in.

Juststeve

Toto:

When you ask why the Jesus cult spreads you ask an interesting question that I can’t answer. You are right that the Schneerson’s cult didn’t spread but you are wrong in other respects. The cult of Mohamed surely spread, today it’s called Islam with a billion or more followers. The cult of Joseph Smith has spread and is still spreading. All of the worlds major religions were once cults that caught on and spread. That the Jesus cult caught on and spread is in no way unique, just hard to understand.

This phenomenon is by no means related to religion. Millions of people think their destiny is controlled by the position of certain planets when they were born. I can’t explain how such a belief caught on but it did. A few people think Jesus never existed but that the Masons secretly control everything. It seems that nutty ideas abound. Can’t explain why.

Steve

bacht

Seems no crazier than other theories I've heard. This was the age of syncretism, and we can see in the OT apocrypha signs of intermixing of ideas.

Alexandria seems to have been an incubator of mysticism. By Mark's time there were probably already gnostic teachings circulating, maybe connected with refugees from the first or second Jewish revolts.

show_no_mercy

Well the obvious answer is evangelism. But this is another non-Jewish thing about Christianity. Judaism as far as I know was never an evangelistic religion. This might have been due to pragmatic reasons, as many Roman emperors looked down on evangelistic religions.

Paul seems to have been the first to come up with the evangelism to non-Jews idea.

Chili

They did and were right because the Jesus of Matthew and Mark was and imposter as James the brother of Jesus who went back to Galilee to preach to them to keep the fire alive and he too has many followers unto this very day and Marcion even claimed to have been his paraclete much in the way that Billy Graham thought to have been god-send.

semiopen

Sabbatai was much more important than Schneerson and is one of the most important figures in Jewish history.

Without Sabbatai there would be no reason for the Baal Shem Tov to modify Lurianic Kabbalah and the Jewish world would be quite a different place.

Regarding a previous comment about resurrection of dead Rebbe/messiahs, resurrection is more or less kosher, although there is debate. That's why many people in Chabad think the Rebbe wasn't seriously dead and would return. Less people believe in the resurrection now than some years ago, but that's the way it is. Why do Jews have to rewrite history to try to convince people that their religion makes some sense?

Once this point is gotten past, there is no good reason why Schneerson should be preferred over Yoshke (perhaps other than the fact that we are sure Schneerson actually existed).

The_Rebbe,_the_Messiah,_and_the_Scandal_of_Orthodo x_Indifference goes into the some of the messianic theological issues. Rabbi Berger, the author, believes that the Rebbe Resurrection view is heretical. Others have pointed out that it is stupid without being heretical.

Chili

But that is only true if you see the Christ as a third person instead of a first in that we must become 'the Christ' and be set free from the law as the first beast of Rev.13 that came from the water instead of the second beast that came from the old earth.

Chili

The wrong Mary who did not come from Nazareth which is reduced by inference in that they moved to Nazareth so it can be said they came from Nazareth (see Matthew 2:23) wherefore then Mary was conceived by the angel of light - Lucifer called 'angel of the Lord' in Matthew 1:20 and 24.

This Mary was Magdalene and not theotokos.