Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Solo · 02-24-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

The mishap is called lapsus memoriae and it happens to all humans. Most laugh it off. To those humans who discover they are gods (or god's elect), and would not give their phantasms, however, such miscues are extremely aggravating.

Who knows? Maybe he did laugh it off... later. Some pretty good discussion.

I have seen F.F.Bruce's argument but I am not impressed with it. Reminds me of the "eye of a needle" gate in Jerusalem preached (and likely invented) by Henry Ward Beecher to provide comfort to the supporters of his prosperous Plymouth Church. Bruce may have opposed that one (IIRC his 'Hard Sayings of Jesus') but his 'fig' theory seems to cut out of the same cloth. There is a problem with a Jesus proposition and so a way has to be found to soften it.

BTW, Luke 4:13 claims that the after the desert temptation, the devil departed from Jesus "until an opportune time". So I think I am on solid scriptural grounds to believe that the devil was a regular in Jesus' cyclical crises.

Jiri

No Robots · 02-24-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

So I think I am on solid scriptural grounds to believe that the devil was a regular in Jesus' cyclical crises.

He had a fiery temperament, full of love and devotion, sensitivity and incomprehension, fickleness and hate, and morality. Constantin Brunner contrasts the character of Christ with that of Spinoza:

When, in 1672, he was suspected to be a French spy, and one had to fear that the populace would break into the house, Spinoza comforted his landlord with these words: "Do not fear anything; as soon as there shall be the slightest clamor at the door of your house, I will walk out and face directly the people, even if they intended to treat me in the some way as they had treated the poor brothers De Witt!"—who had been torn into pieces—and thus he would have suffered martyrdom, and he would not have clamored in agony those dreadful words: "My God, my God, why has Thou abandoned me?!"—Ecce homo!—not from Spinoza. He was the man whose soul could not be seized by any mourning. He stood above tragedy! --Spinoza contra Kant

Buck Laser · 02-24-2009, 04:22 PM

I've cursed a good many things in my life, from sticker grass to weeds: from liver to Ford cars: from some politicians to nephrologists. I don't know if it's insane or not, but I intend to keep casting maledictions and aspersions on whoever and whatever displeases me. I hope that doesn't make me insane!

Edward T. Babinski · 03-16-2009, 08:23 AM

I need info on J.P. Holding's "gangbanger" interpret. of the youths accosting Elisha.

You mentioned it here:

JAYROK: The dove story isn't surprising. JPH's response to Elisha and the bears mouling the youths who were making fun of him is that the youths taunting Elisha with "Go on up bald head..." was actually a large, dangerous band of gangbangers (in their 20s) threatening the life of Elisha and the rest of the town. The bears killing of the kids was therefore justified and of course, God's will.

I have found two Christians on the net who use that interpretation, but haven't found where J.P. Holding does.

Toto · 03-16-2009, 08:37 AM

The last thread on Elisha and the Bears is here with references to prior threads.

The argument that the boys were actually adolescent gangbangers seems to go back to christianthinktank. But Holding could have repeated it at some point.

Edward T. Babinski · 03-16-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The last thread on Elisha and the Bears is here[/URL] with references to prior threads.

The argument that the boys were actually adolescent gangbangers seems to go back to christianthinktank. But Holding could have repeated it at some point.

Thanks Toto. I appreciate other posts you've made at this forum as well. By the way, my only reason for posting my question in this thread was because I was unable to post a private message to Jay since I have not yet reached my five post minimum, so I thought I'd post my question in Jay's most recent thread in order to get his attention and discover an answer to my query.

Edward T. Babinski · 03-16-2009, 08:50 AM

Though I couldn't find any references at The Christian Think Tank, either, connecting homosex or gangbangers with the story of Elisha and the Bears.

I did however find two references by Christians on the web that connected the story with "gangbangers," one by the pastor of "The Plain Truth" radio in his Question and Answer section, and another at Yahoo answers. But nothing connecting The Christian Think Tank nor Holding with such an interpretation (and I search tweb fairly diligently).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The last thread on Elisha and the Bears is here[/URL] with references to prior threads.

The argument that the boys were actually adolescent gangbangers seems to go back to christianthinktank. But Holding could have repeated it at some point.

Thanks Toto. I appreciate other posts you've made at this forum as well. By the way, my only reason for posting my question in this thread was because I was unable to post a private message to Jay since I have not yet reached my five post minimum, so I thought I'd post my question in Jay's most recent thread in order to get his attention and discover an answer to my query.

Toto · 03-16-2009, 09:08 AM

And voila! you now have more than 5 posts.

The christianthinktank.com argument is here.

It doesn't use the word "gangbanger" - that's just the implication of arguing that the "boys" were actually teenagers who posed a threat to Elisha.

Quote:

"'Little children' is an unfortunate translation. The Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best rendered 'young lads' or 'young men.' From numerous examples where ages are specified in the Old Testament, we know that these were boys from twelve to thirty years old. One of these words described Isaac at his sacrifice in Genesis 22:12, when he was easily in his early twenties. It described Joseph in Genesis 37:2 when he was seventeen years old. In fact, the same word described army men in 1 Kings 20:14-15...these are young men ages between twelve and thirty."

You will find some arguments against that idea in the thread.

Here's tektonics (unsigned, looks like Holding's work and he repeats the arguments here, but who knows how long it will be up.)

Quote:

?” Some scholars have compared this to a modern street gang, and that’s not far off from the truth. No, they wouldn’t be stealing the hubcaps off of chariots or anything like that, but let's try things like robbery and banditry (remember the Good Samaritan story?) and maybe theft of animals from farmsteads. That’s no mere prank in this day and age, but a very serious offense that could lead to the starvation of a family of innocents.

In this day and age, every family member was required to make a contribution in order to help the family survive - because there were no social services, no welfare checks, no supermarkets to stock up from in case your pantry was raided. So we have to ask again: Why were these kids banded together in such large numbers, and then, why were they not at home contributing to the survival of their own families? That they were banded together in such large numbers tells us that they were indeed a back-then version of a street gang --rovers who survived on their own, probably by robbing others of their lives and property; or else hoodlums banded together for the specific purpose of harming Elisha.

Jayrok · 03-16-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward T. Babinski

I need info on J.P. Holding's "gangbanger" interpret. of the youths accosting Elisha.

You mentioned it here:

JAYROK: The dove story isn't surprising. JPH's response to Elisha and the bears mouling the youths who were making fun of him is that the youths taunting Elisha with "Go on up bald head..." was actually a large, dangerous band of gangbangers (in their 20s) threatening the life of Elisha and the rest of the town. The bears killing of the kids was therefore justified and of course, God's will.

I have found two Christians on the net who use that interpretation, but haven't found where J.P. Holding does.

I searched on Holding's site for the article I recalled but can't seem to find it. I did find one where he mentioned the incident and reiterated that the "youths" were probably anywhere from 12 to 30 years old.

Holding often cites Glenn Miller (Christian Think Tank) and that could be where I read about it in one of Holdings commentaries. Here is an article from the think tank that suggests the kids that were mauled could be a gang of youths possibly endangering the town:

Link to Mean Elisha article

Quote:

"A careful study of this incident in context shows that it was far more serious than a "mild personal offense." It was a situation of serious public danger, quite as grave as the large youth gangs that roam the ghetto sections of our modern American cities. If these young hoodlums were ranging about in packs of fifty or more, derisive towards respectable adults and ready to mock even a well-known man of God, there is no telling what violence they might have inflicted on the citizenry of the religious center of the kingdom of Israel (as Bethel was), had they been allowed to continue their riotous course. "

JPH has referred to this and his belief that the kids were actually in their 20s and probably dangerous and up to no good.

Edward T. Babinski · 03-16-2009, 10:17 AM

Here's the references I found:

"These were not first graders, but the equivalent of our gangbangers. Current statistics in the U.S. alone place much of the horrible and violent crime in this category—'children' as you call them."
--Greg Albrecht, "President of Plain Truth Ministries, join Greg at www.ptm.org for a new and revolutionary kind of church service. In our half-hour service, you'll find the freedom of authentic, pure and genuine Christianity"
http://www.ptm.org/uni/QandA/0038/doubtBibleMonster.htm

Why did God have little kids eaten by bears.? Best Answer - Chosen by Voters: "Probably not daemons, just a nasty bunch of early gangbangers who had no idea that the old bald head was backed up by bears. Just a helpless old man that they could safely bully and abuse. God gave them their lives in the first place. They were taught the Hebrew society rules from their earliest days, and they chose to ignore them. They made a fine example to other young miscreants to behave or else.
6 months ago
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1200432AAn2FO6

~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward T. Babinski

I need info on J.P. Holding's "gangbanger" interpret. of the youths accosting Elisha.

You mentioned it here:

JAYROK: The dove story isn't surprising. JPH's response to Elisha and the bears mouling the youths who were making fun of him is that the youths taunting Elisha with "Go on up bald head..." was actually a large, dangerous band of gangbangers (in their 20s) threatening the life of Elisha and the rest of the town. The bears killing of the kids was therefore justified and of course, God's will.

I have found two Christians on the net who use that interpretation, but haven't found where J.P. Holding does.

I searched on Holding's site for the article I recalled but can't seem to find it. I did find one where he mentioned the incident and reiterated that the "youths" were probably anywhere from 12 to 30 years old.

Holding often cites Glenn Miller (Christian Think Tank) and that could be where I read about it in one of Holdings commentaries. Here is an article from the think tank that suggests the kids that were mauled could be a gang of youths possibly endangering the town:

Link to Mean Elisha article

Quote:

"A careful study of this incident in context shows that it was far more serious than a "mild personal offense." It was a situation of serious public danger, quite as grave as the large youth gangs that roam the ghetto sections of our modern American cities. If these young hoodlums were ranging about in packs of fifty or more, derisive towards respectable adults and ready to mock even a well-known man of God, there is no telling what violence they might have inflicted on the citizenry of the religious center of the kingdom of Israel (as Bethel was), had they been allowed to continue their riotous course. "

JPH has referred to this and his belief that the kids were actually in their 20s and probably dangerous and up to no good.

03-16-2009, 08:23 AM	#24
Edward T. Babinski Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Greenville, SC, USA Posts: 8	Jayrok, I need info on J.P. Holding's "gangbanger" interpret. of the youths accosting I need info on J.P. Holding's "gangbanger" interpret. of the youths accosting Elisha. You mentioned it here: JAYROK: The dove story isn't surprising. JPH's response to Elisha and the bears mouling the youths who were making fun of him is that the youths taunting Elisha with "Go on up bald head..." was actually a large, dangerous band of gangbangers (in their 20s) threatening the life of Elisha and the rest of the town. The bears killing of the kids was therefore justified and of course, God's will. I have found two Christians on the net who use that interpretation, but haven't found where J.P. Holding does.

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02-24-2009, 04:22 PM	#23
Buck Laser Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 565	I've cursed a good many things in my life, from sticker grass to weeds: from liver to Ford cars: from some politicians to nephrologists. I don't know if it's insane or not, but I intend to keep casting maledictions and aspersions on whoever and whatever displeases me. I hope that doesn't make me insane!

03-16-2009, 08:37 AM	#25
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The last thread on Elisha and the Bears is here with references to prior threads. The argument that the boys were actually adolescent gangbangers seems to go back to christianthinktank. But Holding could have repeated it at some point.

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