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Old 01-02-2010, 10:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by ApostateAbe View Post
If that were the only ad hoc explanation, it may pass.
Ad hoc explanations?

But historicists have NO explanation at all for why Paul claims the reasons Jews do not believe is either that they have never heard of Jesus, or they reject Christian teaching about him.

And historicists have no explanation for Paul banging on and on about where he gets his Christianity from , to the extent that they have to claim that Paul is silent, so they no longer have to listen to him speaking about how Christianity comes from the Old Testament.
No explanation? Not really. The HJ advocates have explanations, and the explanations roughly fit expectations.

The Jews really didn't tend to believe Christianity because they were much closer to the roots of Christianity. For example, Jesus did not seem to fulfill the messianic prophecies. For exmaple, Isaiah 53 was strongly touted by Christians as a messianic prophecy, but the Jews knew that the subject of the passage is the nation of Israel, most of it is in past tense, and the future tense part of the chapter remains questionable. Non-Jewish people would be much more likely to be taken in by the Christian arguments.

Paul claims that he gets his knowledge from direct spiritual revelations from Jesus, and that is explained by Paul wanting to be a powerful leader of Christianity, and such people need to claim direct contact with Jesus himself.

The explanations are plausible, but they do not have direct evidence, so they are only iffy.

The difference, Steven Carr, is that advocates of MJ have only iffy explanations, too, and they tend to be even less plausible. To illustrate, tell me your explanations for those two problems.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:33 AM   #12
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... in 1 Corinthians 2:8, Jesus is executed by earthly rulers
Paul doesn't mention any "earthly" rulers - just the rulers of this world, a phrase that is usually interpreted to refer to demons. He does not refer to Pilate or Herod.

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in 1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus' sayings on divorce are referenced;
"10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord)"

Is Paul quoting Jesus or God? If he is quoting Jesus, is he quoting what an apparition told him?

There is no clear reference to Jesus' ministry on earth here.

And if Paul knew about Jesus' ministry, why did he not know whether Jesus was married or not, and use that fact when discussing marriage in the earlier part of 1 Cor 7?

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in 1 Corinthians 9:14, it's J's sayings on preachers;
Again, "the Lord has commanded." Paul start the chapter with "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" Paul only saw Jesus in a vision, so the most likely inference is that this command came from the vision.

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in 1 Corinthians 11:24-25, it's J's invite to the Last Supper;
Already discussed at length.

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in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, there is reference to J's having died and been buried;
Paul passes on what he has received, but we have no details as to when Jesus died, where he was buried, or in which dimension this happened.

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and in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, we have J's sayings on the coming apocalypse.
Again - "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

The Lord, not Jesus. And why is it the "coming of the Lord" and not the return of Jesus?

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Look, I know full well that fancy tap-dancing has "gone down" putting a few of these references in question on a case-by-case basis. We've even seen a few of these treated in isolation in just such a way right here on this board. But I still have to wonder at all those Netters who just ignore the cumulative force of these various references as a group. How likely is it that we're simply dealing with a series of coincidences here, once we look at this group as a whole?

Chaucer
The tap dancing is on the part of the historicists who try to explain why Paul's references are so vague and ethereal, so lacking in concrete detail of any historical person.
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:36 AM   #13
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After a cursory look-see at the range of threads here, I have not seen any direct discussion of all the Paul citations from Jesus's human ministry as a group that we find in four of the seven authentic epistles from Paul.

It's time to have that discussion of these citations as a whole, not merely one or two in isolation.

In Galatians 1:19, there is mention of a brother James whom Paul has met; in Galatians 4:4, Jesus is said to be born of a human woman and a Jew; in Romans 1:3, Jesus has a "human nature" and is a human descendant of David; in 1 Corinthians 2:8, Jesus is executed by earthly rulers; in 1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus' sayings on divorce are referenced; in 1 Corinthians 9:14, it's J's sayings on preachers; in 1 Corinthians 11:24-25, it's J's invite to the Last Supper; in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, there is reference to J's having died and been buried; and in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, we have J's sayings on the coming apocalypse.
Your post is most absurd. The Pauline Epistles are part of the canonical NT writings.

In the NT, Jesus had a human mother and was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God.

In the NT, Jesus was described as walking on water, transfiguring, resurrecting and ascending through the clouds. The Pauline writers do not contradict such a biography.

The claim that Jesus had a brother does not in any alter his GOD/MAN status.

But, it is significant that the Pauline writers did not mention that they personally saw Jesus alive before he died but wrote that they saw him personally when they could not have done so.

They all saw him with 500 people in a non-historical state. And further, the information about Jesus on earth in the Pauline writings were supposedly derived from the non-historical, raised from the dead, Jesus in the third heaven.

And further, there are no such things as "authentic Pauline Epistles" only that some have considered some of them as authentic without any external corroboration at all.
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:09 AM   #14
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To give just one example, Bart Ehrman questions the historicity of Jesus sayings at this 'Last Supper' of Paul's, where Jesus provides a way for his cult to have access to his body.
Can you summarize Ehrman's argument for this?

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And Luke/Acts, James, Jude have no knowledge of this Jesus ever having had a brother called James.
Do you mean that they don't mention a brother named James in their documents?

How did you actually determine that they really had no knowledge of a brother named James?
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Old 01-02-2010, 11:24 AM   #15
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After a cursory look-see at the range of threads here, I have not seen any direct discussion of all the Paul citations from Jesus's human ministry as a group that we find in four of the seven authentic epistles from Paul.

It's time to have that discussion of these citations as a whole, not merely one or two in isolation.

In Galatians 1:19, there is mention of a brother James whom Paul has met; in Galatians 4:4, Jesus is said to be born of a human woman and a Jew; in Romans 1:3, Jesus has a "human nature" and is a human descendant of David; in 1 Corinthians 2:8, Jesus is executed by earthly rulers; in 1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus' sayings on divorce are referenced; in 1 Corinthians 9:14, it's J's sayings on preachers; in 1 Corinthians 11:24-25, it's J's invite to the Last Supper; in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, there is reference to J's having died and been buried; and in 1 Thessalonians 4:15, we have J's sayings on the coming apocalypse.

Look, I know full well that fancy tap-dancing has "gone down" putting a few of these references in question on a case-by-case basis. We've even seen a few of these treated in isolation in just such a way right here on this board. But I still have to wonder at all those Netters who just ignore the cumulative force of these various references as a group. How likely is it that we're simply dealing with a series of coincidences here, once we look at this group as a whole?

Chaucer
I think this is a useful exercise in sorting out the later uses and abuses of Paul, in trying to make his teachings to conform to a later orthodox position, one which did not exist in his time.
In my understanding, the authentic Paul specifically:

1) considers himself instructed by the Lord directly, without the aid of, or reference to, any other allied or competing teachings. Rom 15:20, 2 Cr 10:14-15, Gal 1:10, 1:12, 1:16, 2:6, 2:10, 5:10. This includes referencing the teachings imputed to Jesus himself: 1 Cr 2:2, 2 Cr 5:16.

2) believes God 'fooled' the rulers regards Jesus: 1 Cr 2:8, 2 Cr 5:21. Paul considers Jesus execution a righteous act of the law, Rom 8:4, in demonstration of the superirority of faith to the written code.

3) seeks acceptance from the Jerusalem saints: dignitaries outside of the group of 'pillars', Rom 15:31, Gal 2:10

4) believes himself mystically crucified to the world through his faith; exhorts his followers to live as spiritual beings, freeing themselves (as he has done) from the desires of the flesh. Rom 7:5, 7:18, 7:25, 8:3-4, 8:6-9, 8:12-13, 1 Cr 3:1, 3:3, 6:16, 15:50, 2 Cr 4:11, Gal 5:17-19, 5:24, 6:8, 6:12-13.

In my view then it is not that Paul knows nothing of the earthly Jesus. He wants to know nothing about him alive, for the simple reason that there is nothing of interest to know about this man than that he was was of lowly station, that he was despised, that he transgressed (or was made to transgress) the law and was killed because of it, not because he was an ordinary sinner (2 Cr 5:21) but because in his incarnation as ordinary man not even he was justified before God by the law (Gal 3:11). All that is of interest of Jesus to Paul (and his students) comes through the Spirit, not through oral traditions or chronicles.

In this perspective then, my appraisal of the references to earthly Jesus in Paul would be as follows:

Gal 1:19 - if genuine (and since Tertullian and Irenaeus do not seem to know about Paul's first visit after reading Galatians, it is a possibility), the reference 'brother of the Lord' would not be to 'Lord Jesus'. The brothers of the Lord in 1 Cr 9:5, I believe were in greatest probability priestly dignitaries in the church of James - brothers (in the service) of the Lord.

Gal 4:4 - 'born of woman, born under the law' are not known to the Marcionite recension, nor to Tertullian. They seem later insert. The interpolation is meaningless as numerous Paul's logia indicate his belief that Jesus was human and subject to the law.

Rom 1:3 - Jesus Davidic descent 'kata sarka' is meaningless in Paul's exposition. It clashes violently with Paul's core teachings (1 Cr 1:18-31 or chs 7-8 in Romans) and contradicts his proclamation in 2 Cr 5:16. Markan gospel, which I take to be resting on Pauline groundwork, argues also against this formula coming from, or being credited by, Paul.

1 Cr 2:8 - fits Pauline baseline teachings. Rulers did not know what they were doing, because were not granted God's wisdom. Jesus 'appeared' guilty-as-charged to them.

1 Cr 7:10 - I do not believe - or at least I consider it gratuitous assumption - that the sayings on divorce are reference to edicts of Jesus on earth. 'Not I but the Lord', in the verse is a formula indicating Paul received this ruling through personal revelation.

1 Cr 9:14 - 'the Lord commanded' is very suspicious and appears to copy the pseudo-Pauline appeal to authority in 1Ti 5:18 which refers to Lk 10:7 as scripture on the same subject.

1 Cr 11:23-26 ask spin about this one.

1 Cr 15:3-4 see my previous contribution on the genuineness of the 1 Cr 15:3-11 passage:

Quote:

The passage of 1 Cor 15:3-11 has been cited recently several times on BCH as evidence of Paul’s knowledge of, and reference to, dominical sayings on resurrection.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in
accordance with the scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8 Least of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of
them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Commenting on the dismissal of the passage as a later insert by R.M. Price and J.C. O’Neill, G.A. Wells pointed out (The Jesus Myth, p.278) that although the verses are present in all extant manuscripts, none of them are earlier than the 3rd century. Also, he argued ably, that lack of evidence of manuscript tampering cannot be invoked selectively to set aside a hypothesis of interpolation, recalling Haenchen’s view that chapter 21 of John’s gospel is not considered to be by the same author as the preceeding twenty by critical scholarship, even though there is no known manuscript variance present there.

So, if not the presence of 1 Cor 15 without the passage, what is the evidence of interpolation in it and how strong is the case that it is a “later credal summary not written by Paul” ?

I think the internal evidence is quite strong that Paul did not write the passage, as it contradicts a number of crucial elements in Paul’s posture and beliefs.

1. Paul’s view of himself vis-ê-vis other apostolic authorities is internally consistent, and uncompromising everywhere elsewhere in his letters. This passage is at loggerheads with that expressed view.
2. Paul’s belief in his commission from God, and its directness, which is absolutely central to his faith, is compromised by the passage.
3. the original pericope of 1:15 by Paul ignores the insert, and
4. the passage uses a resurrectional concepts which are likely anachronistic to Paul


Ad 1) From my point of view, Paul built a very strong and invariant set of beliefs around his mission, his relationship with the church and other apostolic figures. His relation to other leaders of the movement can be summarized as “humble to Christ, haughty to men”. It comes the strongest in Galatians, where the agonistic apostle declares his gospel to be a monopoly from God and threatens everyone who contradicts him with hell (Gal 5:10). But even when he is calm, cool and collected, and writes a clever diatribe, as in 1 Cr 9, he makes his no bones about his own moral superiority. That the Paul who says (in 1 Cr 9:15) “I would rather die than have any one deprive me of my ground of boasting” would a few paragraphs down in the letter, place himself at the bottom of the apostolic heap, and agree that he is the least worthy, is something beyond my humble wits. And humble as my wits may be, they still observe that Paul does not consider his former self persecuting the church to have been a cause for penance and seeing himself as inferior to other men in anything touching on Christ. Quite the contrary, Gal 1:13-14, and Phl 3:6 strongly hint that Paul believed Saul’s zeal in persecuting the church attested to his moral fibre, and the change of heart in the matter was entirely God’s will.
Verse 11 introduces another idea alien to Paul’s habitual thought ways. Paul was very “territorial” when it came to his mission to the Gentiles, and so the point of indifference as to who preaches to the flock he addresses is frankly unbelievable to me. Compare for example with the statement made in the chapter immediately preceeding, 1 Cr 14:37, or 2 Cr 11:4-5, or Gal 3:1, 5:10, or Rom 11:13-14, 15:17-21, or 2 Th 2:15.

Ad 2) Paul’s letters continually advertise his spiritual independence, and his direct relationship with God. As I indicated elsewhere on BCH, I consider it axiomatic that his visionary experiences and revelations about Jesus Christ relate to a late onset of acute bipolarity (relatively late, Swedenborg’s came in mid fifties). Psychologically then, they would provide a hugely prominent internal psychosomatic data against which his beliefs operated. As Paul was a man of low social standing but high dominance, the belief that he was commissioned by God directly had also a big compensatory function. It was something that distinguished Paul from other men and fed his self-esteem. Paul’s viewed himself as someone set apart by God before he was born, one who received (in due time) important revelations about God’s plan for humanity. There is no indication in Gal 1:15 that anything was wrong with God’s timing of Paul’s commission. So it is that verse which clashes head on with 1 Cr 15:8 which sees Paul as being born ‘ektromati’, i.e. in a deficient (or abortive) manner time-wise relative to the visions of other dignitaries. For the same reason, the double reference to “scriptures” in (3 & 4) appears to be a clumsy attempt at being Paul. As Price observed (through reference in op.cit. above) it contradicts directly Paul’s assertion in Gal 1:16 that God revealed his Son in him (en emoi – i.e. directly as a bodily experience – about which more some other time) in order that he might preach him among the Gentiles. By contrast, the wording in 1 Cr 15 replaces the interpreted content of his personal ecstasies and revelations with a vague reference to holy writs, with what looks like intent on the part of the writer to show that Paul knows the gospel expansions extant at a later point and underwrites them. Unfortunately for the inserter, the gloss occurs exactly in a place where Paul appeals to his flock to take his version of Christ’s resurrection - on faith alone !

Ad 3&4) The logical sequencing of the original 1 Cr 15 Paul’s pericope seems to ignore the insert. The verse 12 logically follows verse 2, in concretizing the proposition that faith is in vain without Paul’s gospel, if its central tenet, the resurrection of Christ from the dead is not believed. Paul goes on to raise the ante by suggesting that if he preaches Christ as risen from the dead and he wasn’t, not only the faith of his flock is in vain but that Paul himself is an impostor who misrepresents God, stressing again that without Christ rising, the believers are still in their sins. Then Paul changes his rhetoric and begins asserting that Jesus Christ is “in fact”(nuni) raised, offering as proof the presumed union with him of those in the congregation who have died before parousia. In doing so, Paul strangely duplicates the effort of the insert which claims a scriptural proof of Christ’s rising supplemented by the witness of a multitude.
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:04 PM   #16
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And Luke/Acts, James, Jude have no knowledge of this Jesus ever having had a brother called James.
Do you mean that they don't mention a brother named James in their documents?

How did you actually determine that they really had no knowledge of a brother named James?
Because in Luke there was 'no room' for a brother named James and for this you only need to know the tight weave of Luke, but in Gal. 1 Paul assured that what he wrote was true and that is based on his knowledge of JC.
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Old 01-02-2010, 12:08 PM   #17
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[
In the NT, Jesus had a human mother and was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God.

In the NT, Jesus was described as walking on water, transfiguring, resurrecting and ascending through the clouds. The Pauline writers do not contradict such a biography.

The claim that Jesus had a brother does not in any alter his GOD/MAN status.
It does not specifially say that he had a human mother and his brother was just not born from virgin.
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Old 01-02-2010, 02:31 PM   #18
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Gday,

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in Galatians 4:4, Jesus is said to be born of a human woman
Why on earth would anyone say a person was
"born of woman" ?

Every human ever born (up to then) was "born of woman".
It adds no new information at all.
Is there ANY other example in history of anyone being said to be "born of woman" ?

Then could only be one reason for claiming he was "born of woman" :

Because some people claimed, or believed, he was NOT born of woman. What other reason could there be?

And, we know that some early Christians did NOT believe Jesus was born of woman - the docetics thought he was a phantom, some others thought he never came in the flesh.

Paul's claim is clearly made in response to those who did NOT think he was "born of woman", showing this view was very early.


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Old 01-02-2010, 03:17 PM   #19
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Gday,

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Originally Posted by Chaucer View Post
in Galatians 4:4, Jesus is said to be born of a human woman
Why on earth would anyone say a person was
"born of woman" ?

Every human ever born (up to then) was "born of woman".
It adds no new information at all.
Is there ANY other example in history of anyone being said to be "born of woman" ?

Then could only be one reason for claiming he was "born of woman" :

Because some people claimed, or believed, he was NOT born of woman. What other reason could there be?

And, we know that some early Christians did NOT believe Jesus was born of woman - the docetics thought he was a phantom, some others thought he never came in the flesh.

Paul's claim is clearly made in response to those who did NOT think he was "born of woman", showing this view was very early.


K.
Whatever else it shows about this view, it shows that Paul was very clearly arrayed against it, which is the antithesis of what mythicists claim about the Paul stance. It's the blatant falsification and distortion of Paul in at least four of the authentic letters that I'm addressing in my OP. Thanks for evidently seeing that Paul DOES affirm a Jesus who is human.

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Old 01-02-2010, 03:25 PM   #20
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Gday,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaucer View Post
in Galatians 4:4, Jesus is said to be born of a human woman
Why on earth would anyone say a person was
"born of woman" ?

Every human ever born (up to then) was "born of woman".
It adds no new information at all.
Is there ANY other example in history of anyone being said to be "born of woman" ?
This has been discussed earlier, and I've kept the information:

In the Old Testament c500 BCE?

Job 14:1
Man, that is born of a woman, Is of few days, and full of trouble.

Job 15:14
What is man, that he should be clean? And he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Job 25:4
How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?

Dead Sea Scrolls c100 BCE

http://www.voxdeibaptist.org/anthropology_Pauline.htm

c. 1QH 10.23 "What is the spirit of flesh to fathom all these matters and to appreciate your great and wondrous secret? What is someone born of woman among all your awesome works? He is a structure of dust shaped with water, his base is the guilt of sin, vile unseemliness, source of impurity, over which a spirit of degeneracy rules.

Talmud c200 CE

http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/critwords_2.html

Tractate Shabbath 88b
When Moses ascended on high, the ministering angels spake before the Holy One, blessed be He, 'Sovereign of the Universe! What business has one born of woman amongst us?' 'He has come to receive the Torah,' answered He to them.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/hl/hl07.htm

Tosephoth asks, "Why was not Eve numbered among these beauties, since even Sarah, in comparison with Eve, was an ape compared to a man?" The reply is, "Only those born of woman are here enumerated."

In these cases, you can see that 'born of woman' is being used to indicate that the person was merely a man.

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Originally Posted by Kapyong View Post
And, we know that some early Christians did NOT believe Jesus was born of woman - the docetics thought he was a phantom, some others thought he never came in the flesh.

Paul's claim is clearly made in response to those who did NOT think he was "born of woman", showing this view was very early.
Then, doesn't that answer your question? Whether it is original to Paul or not, it is used to indicate that Jesus was thought of as a human being on earth. Correct?
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