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01-02-2010, 10:17 AM | #11 | |
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The Jews really didn't tend to believe Christianity because they were much closer to the roots of Christianity. For example, Jesus did not seem to fulfill the messianic prophecies. For exmaple, Isaiah 53 was strongly touted by Christians as a messianic prophecy, but the Jews knew that the subject of the passage is the nation of Israel, most of it is in past tense, and the future tense part of the chapter remains questionable. Non-Jewish people would be much more likely to be taken in by the Christian arguments. Paul claims that he gets his knowledge from direct spiritual revelations from Jesus, and that is explained by Paul wanting to be a powerful leader of Christianity, and such people need to claim direct contact with Jesus himself. The explanations are plausible, but they do not have direct evidence, so they are only iffy. The difference, Steven Carr, is that advocates of MJ have only iffy explanations, too, and they tend to be even less plausible. To illustrate, tell me your explanations for those two problems. |
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01-02-2010, 10:33 AM | #12 | ||||||
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Paul doesn't mention any "earthly" rulers - just the rulers of this world, a phrase that is usually interpreted to refer to demons. He does not refer to Pilate or Herod.
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Is Paul quoting Jesus or God? If he is quoting Jesus, is he quoting what an apparition told him? There is no clear reference to Jesus' ministry on earth here. And if Paul knew about Jesus' ministry, why did he not know whether Jesus was married or not, and use that fact when discussing marriage in the earlier part of 1 Cor 7? Quote:
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The Lord, not Jesus. And why is it the "coming of the Lord" and not the return of Jesus? Quote:
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01-02-2010, 10:36 AM | #13 | |
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In the NT, Jesus had a human mother and was the offspring of the Holy Ghost of God. In the NT, Jesus was described as walking on water, transfiguring, resurrecting and ascending through the clouds. The Pauline writers do not contradict such a biography. The claim that Jesus had a brother does not in any alter his GOD/MAN status. But, it is significant that the Pauline writers did not mention that they personally saw Jesus alive before he died but wrote that they saw him personally when they could not have done so. They all saw him with 500 people in a non-historical state. And further, the information about Jesus on earth in the Pauline writings were supposedly derived from the non-historical, raised from the dead, Jesus in the third heaven. And further, there are no such things as "authentic Pauline Epistles" only that some have considered some of them as authentic without any external corroboration at all. |
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01-02-2010, 11:09 AM | #14 | ||
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How did you actually determine that they really had no knowledge of a brother named James? |
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01-02-2010, 11:24 AM | #15 | ||
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In my understanding, the authentic Paul specifically: 1) considers himself instructed by the Lord directly, without the aid of, or reference to, any other allied or competing teachings. Rom 15:20, 2 Cr 10:14-15, Gal 1:10, 1:12, 1:16, 2:6, 2:10, 5:10. This includes referencing the teachings imputed to Jesus himself: 1 Cr 2:2, 2 Cr 5:16. 2) believes God 'fooled' the rulers regards Jesus: 1 Cr 2:8, 2 Cr 5:21. Paul considers Jesus execution a righteous act of the law, Rom 8:4, in demonstration of the superirority of faith to the written code. 3) seeks acceptance from the Jerusalem saints: dignitaries outside of the group of 'pillars', Rom 15:31, Gal 2:10 4) believes himself mystically crucified to the world through his faith; exhorts his followers to live as spiritual beings, freeing themselves (as he has done) from the desires of the flesh. Rom 7:5, 7:18, 7:25, 8:3-4, 8:6-9, 8:12-13, 1 Cr 3:1, 3:3, 6:16, 15:50, 2 Cr 4:11, Gal 5:17-19, 5:24, 6:8, 6:12-13. In my view then it is not that Paul knows nothing of the earthly Jesus. He wants to know nothing about him alive, for the simple reason that there is nothing of interest to know about this man than that he was was of lowly station, that he was despised, that he transgressed (or was made to transgress) the law and was killed because of it, not because he was an ordinary sinner (2 Cr 5:21) but because in his incarnation as ordinary man not even he was justified before God by the law (Gal 3:11). All that is of interest of Jesus to Paul (and his students) comes through the Spirit, not through oral traditions or chronicles. In this perspective then, my appraisal of the references to earthly Jesus in Paul would be as follows: Gal 1:19 - if genuine (and since Tertullian and Irenaeus do not seem to know about Paul's first visit after reading Galatians, it is a possibility), the reference 'brother of the Lord' would not be to 'Lord Jesus'. The brothers of the Lord in 1 Cr 9:5, I believe were in greatest probability priestly dignitaries in the church of James - brothers (in the service) of the Lord. Gal 4:4 - 'born of woman, born under the law' are not known to the Marcionite recension, nor to Tertullian. They seem later insert. The interpolation is meaningless as numerous Paul's logia indicate his belief that Jesus was human and subject to the law. Rom 1:3 - Jesus Davidic descent 'kata sarka' is meaningless in Paul's exposition. It clashes violently with Paul's core teachings (1 Cr 1:18-31 or chs 7-8 in Romans) and contradicts his proclamation in 2 Cr 5:16. Markan gospel, which I take to be resting on Pauline groundwork, argues also against this formula coming from, or being credited by, Paul. 1 Cr 2:8 - fits Pauline baseline teachings. Rulers did not know what they were doing, because were not granted God's wisdom. Jesus 'appeared' guilty-as-charged to them. 1 Cr 7:10 - I do not believe - or at least I consider it gratuitous assumption - that the sayings on divorce are reference to edicts of Jesus on earth. 'Not I but the Lord', in the verse is a formula indicating Paul received this ruling through personal revelation. 1 Cr 9:14 - 'the Lord commanded' is very suspicious and appears to copy the pseudo-Pauline appeal to authority in 1Ti 5:18 which refers to Lk 10:7 as scripture on the same subject. 1 Cr 11:23-26 ask spin about this one. 1 Cr 15:3-4 see my previous contribution on the genuineness of the 1 Cr 15:3-11 passage: Quote:
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01-02-2010, 12:04 PM | #16 | ||
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01-02-2010, 12:08 PM | #17 | |
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01-02-2010, 02:31 PM | #18 |
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Gday,
Why on earth would anyone say a person was "born of woman" ? Every human ever born (up to then) was "born of woman". It adds no new information at all. Is there ANY other example in history of anyone being said to be "born of woman" ? Then could only be one reason for claiming he was "born of woman" : Because some people claimed, or believed, he was NOT born of woman. What other reason could there be? And, we know that some early Christians did NOT believe Jesus was born of woman - the docetics thought he was a phantom, some others thought he never came in the flesh. Paul's claim is clearly made in response to those who did NOT think he was "born of woman", showing this view was very early. K. |
01-02-2010, 03:17 PM | #19 | |
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01-02-2010, 03:25 PM | #20 | ||
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In the Old Testament c500 BCE? Job 14:1 Man, that is born of a woman, Is of few days, and full of trouble. Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? And he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Job 25:4 How then can man be just with God? Or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Dead Sea Scrolls c100 BCE http://www.voxdeibaptist.org/anthropology_Pauline.htm c. 1QH 10.23 "What is the spirit of flesh to fathom all these matters and to appreciate your great and wondrous secret? What is someone born of woman among all your awesome works? He is a structure of dust shaped with water, his base is the guilt of sin, vile unseemliness, source of impurity, over which a spirit of degeneracy rules. Talmud c200 CE http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/critwords_2.html Tractate Shabbath 88b When Moses ascended on high, the ministering angels spake before the Holy One, blessed be He, 'Sovereign of the Universe! What business has one born of woman amongst us?' 'He has come to receive the Torah,' answered He to them. http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/hl/hl07.htm Tosephoth asks, "Why was not Eve numbered among these beauties, since even Sarah, in comparison with Eve, was an ape compared to a man?" The reply is, "Only those born of woman are here enumerated." In these cases, you can see that 'born of woman' is being used to indicate that the person was merely a man. Quote:
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