Julian

Don't water it down. Pour it on. This isn't for novices. If someone has trouble following along, by all means, let them post their problems and we will all help, but let's not assume least common denominator.
I completely agree. I am not here to win arguments or be the big man. I am here to learn. I was never too proud to ask questions, only proud enough to do so.
And it increases your post count. *insert Groucho Marx eyebrow lifts here*

My GF is sleeping so I can spend another hour here studying. Isn't it grand?

Julian

Phlox Pyros

It's the only one I could find, unfortunatley. However, it is really not much different from that found in the NA27, so that website was probably hand duplicated or scanned from the NA27 to provide a needed resource.

The more the merrier. I was actually thinking about something like this as well. Perhaps even creating a Greek unicode version of the Eusebian tables and information on how to use them. Yet another pet project that I'll probably never have the time to get around to.

I'm afraid I just can't answer that well with my limited experience with the Eusebian Canons, but we could use this thread to find out over time... I believe I read somewhere (ie. Metzger?/Aland?) that they go in order and that it is not difficult to get the hang of finding them once you understand the system. You also need to understand the purpose of each canon/table in order to use them effectively.

Good to know! I love doing this kind of thing and I always learn something new that I didn't know before! Great fun for us nerds...perhaps I should speak for myself. LOL

Well, I'm afraid I'm out of time tonight, and the weekend could be more busy than I had planned, but I'll definitely try to get back to this. We need to lay out some Greek lines of the different ancient texts (like Swanson) for comparison and post some pictures of the differences from Alexandrinus. That would be great too.

My first goal (or someone else's should they choose to do so), is to show the symbols for the kephalaia and how they look in the text. There are also some scattered "modern" references. I found one for the "modern" chapter 3 a few images later. Anyway, there are lots of directions to head with this thread. Could be exciting. Everyone jump in and participate to your hearts desire, or just read and learn!

Julian

I do not have NA27, I have UBS4. I will be getting NA27 probably this weekend, well ordering it, anyways. Check out my list: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=157957
I love my Swanson! I prefer it to my UBS4 and, I am sure, soon I will prefer it to my NA27. In my copy it is on page 12, did you mistype?

I am looking at footnote D, could you explain how that works? I see the MSS and then, I guess references to the various gospels Ευ Μρ (Marj, I assume?), for example, but what is ι : Λο λβ : Ιω (John?)... etc.

Julian

Julian

I probably will have the time, however, and being a progammer who does web stuff these days... I will make sure to ask for your input.
Nah, I am a big nerd, I just don't look like one.
I have to drive to Cleveland this weekend to visit some of my GFs friends. Well, it will give me a chance to go to the Museum of Cleveland (or whatever it is called) and photograph the plate armors they have there. Anyways, I probably won't be online too much this weekend...
I think that it is just you and I and Buster. Maybe Chris. Where are you, Chris? It would be nice if Stephen (Carlson) would chime in, he is, after all, somewhat of a bonafide expert in this field.

Julian

Phlox Pyros

Good stuff. I'll have to look it over and make some better recommendations that just my half jesting Julian post...

I do to. As yet another project, I'd love to take all online images and create something similar for free online. That'd be a great resource!

I did. It should read page 12 (my eyes apparently jumped to the verse 17...at least that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it).

Well, after the D you will find the modern verse numbers for the page in bold text (eg. 16.....17 for page 12). Immediately after these, you will find the Eusebian reference and the manuscripts that contain that reference. If the references differ between manuscritps, then you will find a "pipe" ("|", actually a broken vertical line) symbol separating them. I am unsure what the solid vertical lines are for, nor am I sure what some of the other symbols you mention are. These may be better defined in the introduction to the edition. If not, perhaps someone here will know and help out.

Phlox Pyros

Yes, I think they could all provide some excellent input.

Roger Pearse

This detailed explanation was very useful indeed, and really should be a web-page.

Typo? I presume the nominum sacrum should have read IC and not IH?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

I am a little confused about the kephalaia and titloi and Eusebian sections, and perhaps someone could explain.

1. I am familiar with the Eusebian canon tables, and can see the marks in the margin which indicate entries to these, so no problem there.

2. I can see the kephalaia on that image above, preceding the text, each with a numeral to its left. What I do not see is how to relate these to the text itself. Are there division markers within the text? I take it that each kephalaion does not get reproduced in the text -- at least I couldn't see the first one on the first page if it does.

3. What and where are the titloi, and how do they relate to all this?

I read in the introduction that the kephalaia (not based on the modern/medieval chapters, of course) are ancient, and have been ascribed to Tatian for some reason, although not found in Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. I am interested in the general topic of chapter titles, pre-book summaries, chapter divisions, as it relates to other texts (such as those of Eusebius) and so would like some clarity.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Phlox Pyros

You are correct. Mea culpa.

Phlox Pyros

I'm kind of learning this stuff as well, so I hope someone else will speak up if they know better...

Actually, I think what you are looking at are the Eusebian sections, not the kaphalaia. I attempted to explain the canon numbers in a later post, but may not have gotten it across well. Most times (I believe) there will be a space in the text and the letter on the following line will be enlarged (if the section begins on a line, then there may be no space in the text, just an enlarged letter).

I'll get into this later and point out a picture, but the kaphalaia do not appear to me to have numbers associated with them. They are just symbols in the text. From what I have seen so far, the symbols are lone "half percent signs" with a horizontal dash below them. That horizontal dash is reproduced inside the text wherever the section begins.

I believe that the titloi are at the very top of the page (and are mostly smudged and/or lost). If there are elsewhere as well, someone else may have to point them out.

I'll try and provide some more detail later. Hope this helps a little.