lpetrich

Because of how hagiographical the Gospels are.

Does anyone trust the Mormon Church to give an accurate account of Joseph Smith's career? Or the Church of Scientology with L. Ron Hubbard?

For both of those gentlemen, we have plenty of outside documentation, much of it more convincing than their churches' accounts of them.

DCHindley

Or the old USSR's presentation of Joseph Stalin's contribution to Soviet history (and conversely the representations of figures such as Leon Trostky).

DCH

bacht

Right. The problem seems to hinge on the word "evidence" and how it's defined by theists and non-theists. Subjective vs objective? Intuitive vs scientific?

Also we've learned a lot about how verifiable the Old Testament stories are (not perfect, but there's no divine messiah either). If the NT writers followed the example of their predecessors then we can't expect to read the Christian saga as straight reporting. Even Josephus made mistakes, and he was trying to write secular history.

Doug Shaver

We're talking about what Paul believed. Why are you bringing Timothy and Colossians into the discussion?

I think he's talking about a divine being who was crucified and resurrected in a spirit world somewhere between earth and God's abode after taking on some kind of human essence. The human or fleshly form or "likeness" that he had was something Platonic.

jakejonesiv

Well, yes, and it will continue as long as it takes for sschlichter to get "the last word." He keeps repeating the same points over and over. There is nothing new in apologetics.

Jake

Toto

discussion of Zindler on Photius has been split off here

The Joshua Jesus connection has been split off here.

PM me if you think posts were missed, or if other splits would be useful.

aa5874

The Jesus of the Pauline letters must be the same God/man that was propagated by the NT authors and the Church. It was for that very reason why the Pauline letters are found in the NT and regarded as sacred scripture.

This is a Pauline writer talking about Jesus while he was on earth before he was betrayed in the night after he had supped.

1 Corinthians 11:23- 24 This passage found in Corinthians is compatible with events found in the Gospels where Jesus the God/man made similar remarks to his so-called disciples before he was betrayed in the night and later crucified on earth after a trial with Pilate.

There is no indication in the NT or the Church writings that the Last Supper with the disciples, the betrayal by Judas, the trial of Jesus with Pilate, his crucifixion in view of some women, and death, happened in heaven or any similarly described location.

sschlichter

What other elements in Rom 1:1-4 did Paul consider platonic? The prophets, the scriptures, David? Do you think Paul considered any of David's other fleshly descendants' platonic?

sschlichter

why would I have a different answer to the same question over and over again. If you ask me one more time why I beleive Paul thought Jesus had flesh, was sinless, died, and resurrected, I will likely point to the same dozen passages that Paul wrote about Jesus' flesh, sinlessness, death, and resurrection.

sschlichter

help me with the logic in this. because person A lies and person B lies then all persons must be lying.

It is not even a very good analogy. You can identify other motives in both of those cases. What person are you equating these individuals to? Jesus? What were the ulterior motives?