Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The context of this quote has nothing to do with Plato. It is dealing with the sacraments of the Christian Church.

Why did Clement include it?

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 02:50 PM

Oh I see your point. But Plato is an appendage to the main point. Here are all the Plato references in the chapter:

Quote:

Rightly, therefore, the divine apostle says, “By revelation the mystery was made known to me (as I wrote before in brief, in accordance with which, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets.” 3052 For there is an instruction of the perfect, of which, writing to the Colossians, he says, “We cease not to pray for you, and beseech that ye may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye may walk worthy of the Lord to all pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all might according to the glory of His power.” 3053 And again he says, “According to the disposition of the grace of God which is given me, that ye may fulfil the word of God; the mystery which has been hid from ages and generations, which now is manifested to His saints: to whom God wished to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations.” 3054 So that, on the one hand, then, are p. 459 the mysteries which were hid till the time of the apostles, and were delivered by them as they received from the Lord, and, concealed in the Old Testament, were manifested to the saints. And, on the other hand, there is “the riches of the glory of the mystery in the Gentiles,” which is faith and hope in Christ; which in another place he has called the “foundation.” 3055 And again, as if in eagerness to divulge this knowledge, he thus writes: “Warning every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man (the whole man) perfect in Christ;” not every man simply, since no one would be unbelieving. Nor does he call every man who believes in Christ perfect; but he 3056 says all the man, as if he said the whole man, as if purified in body and soul. For that the knowledge does not appertain to all, he expressly adds: “Being knit together in love, and unto all the riches of the full assurance of knowledge, to the acknowledgment of the mystery of God in Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” 3057 “Continue in prayer, watching therein with thanksgiving.” 3058 And thanksgiving has place not for the soul and spiritual blessings alone, but also for the body, and for the good things of the body. And he still more clearly reveals that knowledge belongs not to all, by adding: “Praying at the same time for you, that God would open to us a door to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am bound; that I may make it known as I ought to speak.” 3059 For there were certainly, among the Hebrews, some things delivered unwritten. “For when ye ought to be teachers for the time,” it is said, as if they had grown old in the Old Testament, “ye have again need that one teach you which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food. For every one that partaketh of milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe, being instructed with the first lessons. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, who by reason of use have their senses exercised so as to distinguish between good and evil. Wherefore, leaving the first principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection.” 3060

Barnabas, too, who in person preached the word along with the apostle in the ministry of the Gentiles, says, “I write to you most simply, that ye may understand.” Then below, exhibiting already a clearer trace of gnostic tradition, he says, “What says the other prophet Moses to them? Lo, thus saith the Lord God, Enter ye into the good land which the Lord God sware, the God of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob; and ye received for an inheritance that land, flowing with milk and honey.” 3061 What says knowledge? Learn, hope, it says, in Jesus, who is to be manifested to you in the flesh. For man is the suffering land; for from the face of the ground was the formation of Adam. What, then, does it say in reference to the good land, flowing with milk and honey? Blessed be our Lord, brethren, who has put into our hearts wisdom, and the understanding of His secrets. For the prophet says, “Who shall understand the Lord’s parable but the wise and understanding, and he that loves his Lord?” It is but for few to comprehend these things. For it is not in the way of envy that the Lord announced in a Gospel, “My mystery is to me, and to the sons of my house;” placing the election in safety, and beyond anxiety; so that the things pertaining to what it has chosen and taken may be above the reach of envy. For he who has not the knowledge of good is wicked: for there is one good, the Father; and to be ignorant of the Father is death, as to know Him is eternal life, through participation in the power of the incorrupt One. And to be incorruptible is to participate in divinity; but revolt from the knowledge of God brings corruption. Again the prophet says: “And I will give thee treasures, concealed, dark, unseen; that they may know that I am the Lord.” 3062 Similarly David sings: “For, lo, Thou hast loved truth; the obscure and hidden things of wisdom hast Thou showed me.” 3063 “Day utters speech to day” 3064 (what is clearly written), “and night to night proclaims knowledge” (which is hidden in a mystic veil); “and there are no words or utterances whose voices shall not be heard” by God, who said, “Shall one do what is secret, and I shall not see him?”

Wherefore instruction, which reveals hidden things, is called illumination, as it is the teacher only who uncovers the lid of the ark, contrary to what the poets say, that “Zeus stops up the jar of good things, but opens that of evil.” “For I know,” says the apostle, “that when I come to you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of Christ;” 3065 designating the spiritual gift, and the gnostic communication, which being present he desires to impart to them present as “the fulness of Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery sealed in the ages of eternity, but now manifested by the prophetic Scriptures, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all the nations, in order to the obedience of faith,” that is, those p. 460 of the nations who believe that it is. But only to a few of them is shown what those things are which are contained in the mystery.

Rightly then, Plato, in the Epistles, treating of God, says: “We must speak in enigmas; that should the tablet come by any mischance on its leaves either by sea or land, he who reads may remain ignorant.” For the God of the universe, who is above all speech, all conception, all thought, can never be committed to writing, being inexpressible even by His own power. And this too Plato showed, by saying: “Considering, then, these things, take care lest some time or other you repent on account of the present things, departing in a manner unworthy. The greatest safeguard is not to write, but learn; for it is utterly impossible that what is written will not vanish.”

Akin to this is what the holy Apostle Paul says, preserving the prophetic and truly ancient secret from which the teachings that were good were derived by the Greeks: “Howbeit we speak wisdom among them who are perfect; but not the wisdom of this world, or of the princes of this world, that come to nought; but we speak the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery.” 3066 Then proceeding, he thus inculcates the caution against the divulging of his words to the multitude in the following terms: “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able; neither are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal.” 3067

If, then, “the milk” is said by the apostle to belong to the babes, and “meat” to be the food of the full-grown, milk will be understood to be catechetical instruction—the first food, as it were, of the soul. And meat is the mystic contemplation; for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, the comprehension of the divine power and essence. “Taste and see that the Lord is Christ,” 3068 it is said. For so He imparts of Himself to those who partake of such food in a more spiritual manner; when now the soul nourishes itself, according to the truth-loving Plato. For the knowledge of the divine essence is the meat and drink of the divine Word. Wherefore also Plato says, in the second book of the Republic, “It is those that sacrifice not a sow, but some great and difficult sacrifice,” who ought to inquire respecting God. And the apostle writes, “Christ our passover was sacrificed for us;” 3069 —a sacrifice hard to procure, in truth, the Son of God consecrated for us.

And let's focus our discussion to that section which references Plato and notice:

Quote:

Rightly then, Plato, in the Epistles, treating of God, says: “We must speak in enigmas; that should the tablet come by any mischance on its leaves either by sea or land, he who reads may remain ignorant.” For the God of the universe, who is above all speech, all conception, all thought, can never be committed to writing, being inexpressible even by His own power. And this too Plato showed, by saying: “Considering, then, these things, take care lest some time or other you repent on account of the present things, departing in a manner unworthy. The greatest safeguard is not to write, but learn; for it is utterly impossible that what is written will not vanish.”

Akin to this is what the holy Apostle Paul says, preserving the prophetic and truly ancient secret from which the teachings that were good were derived by the Greeks: “Howbeit we speak wisdom among them who are perfect; but not the wisdom of this world, or of the princes of this world, that come to nought; but we speak the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery.” 3066 Then proceeding, he thus inculcates the caution against the divulging of his words to the multitude in the following terms: “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, even to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able; neither are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal.” 3067

If, then, “the milk” is said by the apostle to belong to the babes, and “meat” to be the food of the full-grown, milk will be understood to be catechetical instruction—the first food, as it were, of the soul. And meat is the mystic contemplation; for this is the flesh and the blood of the Word, that is, the comprehension of the divine power and essence. “Taste and see that the Lord is Christ,” 3068 it is said. For so He imparts of Himself to those who partake of such food in a more spiritual manner; when now the soul nourishes itself, according to the truth-loving Plato. For the knowledge of the divine essence is the meat and drink of the divine Word. Wherefore also Plato says, in the second book of the Republic, “It is those that sacrifice not a sow, but some great and difficult sacrifice,” who ought to inquire respecting God. And the apostle writes, “Christ our passover was sacrificed for us;” 3069 —a sacrifice hard to procure, in truth, the Son of God consecrated for us.

In other words the Alexandrian tradition believed that Plato and the Greeks copied the Jewish 'mysteries' of Moses. How is this possible? Perhaps he/they believed that the Jewish mysteries bear some connection with Egyptian religion? Notice Clement doesn't say 'Egyptians' or 'pagans' but 'the Greeks'

Horatio Parker · 02-04-2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

In other words the Alexandrian tradition believed that Plato and the Greeks copied the Jewish 'mysteries' of Moses. How is this possible? Perhaps he/they believed that the Jewish mysteries bear some connection with Egyptian religion? Notice Clement doesn't say 'Egyptians' or 'pagans' but 'the Greeks'

Possible that the Greeks did so copy or possible that the Alexandrians believed so?

If the second, the answer is probably that they saw an affinity, and wishing to draw the traditions closer together, concluded that they must've known of each others ideas.

The point about the Egyptians is a potentially fascinating one. There may well be some overlap there. There are several ancient comments about how Greeks ideas originated in Egypt "being" being one IIRC.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 03:33 PM

I may regret suggesting this 'way out' idea but I have been musing about the possibility that yesh and Yeshu may go back to Isis:

Quote:

Osiris's name, *Usir also starts with the throne glyph ʔs.[4] For convenience, Egyptologists arbitrarily choose to pronounce her name as "ee-set". Sometimes they may also say "ee-sa" because the final "t" in her name was a feminine suffix, which is known to have been dropped in speech during the last stages of the Egyptian language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

The only reason I mention this is that the Egyptian Church had a throne fixation which is difficult to explain. There is nothing behind this notion other than the fact that I can't explain why Clement and the early Christians don't have a problem with Jesus being identified with 'Wisdom' and do so repeatedly even though 'Wisdom' is a woman (my son on the other hand is at that stage where he hates anything to do with girls, especially Dora the Explorer).

Just to base some of this wild speculation in 'facts.' Linguists can't explain where the Hebrew word 'yesh' comes from. Even more bizarre is the etymology in the second introductory section of the De Iside, Plutarch makes what is, in the context of Greek writing about Egypt, an astonishing claim: “Isis is a Greek name” (Ἑλληνικὸν γὰρ ἡ Ἰσίς ἐστι). His suggestion is that Isis derives from οἶδα the perfect of εἶδος which is pretty damn close to the relationship with respect to yesh and οὐσία which is universally acknowledged (as noted the Syriac Church used yesh to translated οὐσία).

DCHindley · 02-04-2012, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Alexandrian Christianity from Philo to Arius is a continuous tradition.

Like Marx followed Adam Smith.

I would not invite any comparisons between Marxism and Christianity, if I were you.

Karl Marx was, in fact, thoroughly acquainted with the classical economics of Adam Smith. In Marx's Capital, Smith's book An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations is quoted 33 times and discussed at length in four additional places.

One should not assume that someone who thinks in opposition to something is not acquainted with what he opposes. Marx worked out what he thought were the logical extremes that the principals taught by classical economists could be pushed, in order to show that the calculus demonstrates different causes and effects than were assumed by the classical economists.

That doesn't mean that he is right, just that he knows whereof he speaks. A thoroughly Marxist analysis of early Christian development was written by socialist Karl Kautsky, Foundations of Christianity (1908, Eng. tr 1925 by Jacob W. Hartmann & 1953 by Henry F. Mins):

Book One: The Person Of Jesus
I. The Pagan Sources
II. The Christian Sources
III. The Dispute Over the Concept of Jesus

Book Two: Society in the Roman Empire
I. The Slave Economy
Landed Property
Domestic Slavery
Slavery in Commodity Production
The Technological Inferiority of the Slave Economy
The Economic Decline

II. The State
State and Commerce
Patricians and Plebeians
The Roman State
Usury
Absolutism

III. Thought and Sentiment in the Age of the Roman Empire
Insecurity
Credulity
Untruthfulness
Humaneness
Internationalism
Piety
Monotheism

Book Three: The Jews
I. Israel
Migrations of the Semitic Peoples
Palestine
The Conception of God in Ancient Israel
Trade and Philosophy
Trade and Nationality
Canaan, Road of the Nations
Class Struggles in Israel
The Decline of Israel
The First Destruction of Jerusalem

II. The Jews After the Exile
The Exile
The Jewish Diaspora
The Jewish Propaganda
Anti-Semitism
Jerusalem
The Sadducees
The Pharisees
The Zealots
The Essenes

Book Four: The Beginnings of Christianity
I. The Primitive Christian Community
The Proletarian Character of the Community
Class Hatred
Communism
Objections to the Existence of Communism
Contempt for Labor
Destruction of the Family

II. The Christian Idea of the Messiah
The Coming of the Kingdom of God
The Lineage of Jesus
Jesus as a Rebel
The Resurrection of the Crucified
The International Savior

III. Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians
Agitation among the Pagans
The Opposition between Jews and Christians

IV. The History of Christ’s Passion

V. The Development of the Christian Community
Proletarians and Slaves
The Decline of Communism
Apostles, Prophets and Teachers
Bishop
Monasticism

But, do Commies read christian works? Apparently so.

DCH

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 06:01 PM

From Plutarch's De Iside

II. On this account a desire for religious knowledge is an aiming at Truth, particularly that relating to the gods—a pursuit containing both in the acquisition and in the search a reception, as it were, of things sacred—an occupation more pious than any observation of abstinence, or religious service: but particularly well-pleasing to this goddess who is the special object of thy devotion; for she is both wise, and a lover of wisdom; as her name appears to denote that, more than any other, knowing and knowledge belong to her. For “Isis” is a Greek word, and so is “Typhon,” her enemy, for he is “puffed up” by want of knowledge and falsehood, and tears to pieces, and puts out of sight, the sacred word which the goddess again gathers up and puts together, and gives into the charge of those initiated into the religion; whilst by means of a perpetually sober life, by abstinence from many kinds of food and from venery, she checks intemperance and love of pleasure, accustoming people to endure her service with bowels not enervated by luxury, but hardy and vigorous; the object of all which is the knowledge of the First, the Supreme, and the Intelligible; whom the goddess exhorts you to seek after, for he is both by her side, and united with her. The very name of her Temple clearly promises both the communication and the understanding of That which is—for it is called the “Ision,” [“The entering-place,” as if derived from the Greek.] inasmuch as That which is shall be known if we enter with intelligence and piously into the sacred rites of the goddess.

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 07:15 PM

The point of course is that no one could seriously believe Plutarch's claims about Isis being a Greek name. But yesh (yod-shin) isn't a forced equivalent of Platonic terminology. “Is” (Isis) is also the Greek phonetic equivalent of yesh (yod-shin). Clement's arguments about Christianity being the “true mysteries” would be particularly appropriate

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 11:34 PM

Is Jesus anything more than the embodiment of the divine οὐσία? Seriously. This is his practical function in the Church, in the same way that Colonel Sanders signs represent fried chicken. Right?

stephan huller · 02-04-2012, 11:49 PM

I found the crosses on this coin from the time of Constantine quite interesting:

Doug Shaver · 02-05-2012, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Alexandrian Christianity from Philo to Arius is a continuous tradition.

Like Marx followed Adam Smith.

I would not invite any comparisons between Marxism and Christianity, if I were you.

Karl Marx was, in fact, thoroughly acquainted with the classical economics of Adam Smith. In Marx's Capital, Smith's book An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations is quoted 33 times and discussed at length in four additional places.

One should not assume that someone who thinks in opposition to something is not acquainted with what he opposes. Marx worked out what he thought were the logical extremes that the principals taught by classical economists could be pushed, in order to show that the calculus demonstrates different causes and effects than were assumed by the classical economists.

Yes, I'm aware of all that.

What I suspect sotto voce is not aware of is certain key similarities between his version of Christianity and the interpretation of Marxism often referred to as Stalinism.

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02-04-2012, 06:01 PM	#146
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	From Plutarch's De Iside II. On this account a desire for religious knowledge is an aiming at Truth, particularly that relating to the gods—a pursuit containing both in the acquisition and in the search a reception, as it were, of things sacred—an occupation more pious than any observation of abstinence, or religious service: but particularly well-pleasing to this goddess who is the special object of thy devotion; for she is both wise, and a lover of wisdom; as her name appears to denote that, more than any other, knowing and knowledge belong to her. For “Isis” is a Greek word, and so is “Typhon,” her enemy, for he is “puffed up” by want of knowledge and falsehood, and tears to pieces, and puts out of sight, the sacred word which the goddess again gathers up and puts together, and gives into the charge of those initiated into the religion; whilst by means of a perpetually sober life, by abstinence from many kinds of food and from venery, she checks intemperance and love of pleasure, accustoming people to endure her service with bowels not enervated by luxury, but hardy and vigorous; the object of all which is the knowledge of the First, the Supreme, and the Intelligible; whom the goddess exhorts you to seek after, for he is both by her side, and united with her. The very name of her Temple clearly promises both the communication and the understanding of That which is—for it is called the “Ision,” [“The entering-place,” as if derived from the Greek.] inasmuch as That which is shall be known if we enter with intelligence and piously into the sacred rites of the goddess.

02-04-2012, 07:15 PM	#147
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The point of course is that no one could seriously believe Plutarch's claims about Isis being a Greek name. But yesh (yod-shin) isn't a forced equivalent of Platonic terminology. “Is” (Isis) is also the Greek phonetic equivalent of yesh (yod-shin). Clement's arguments about Christianity being the “true mysteries” would be particularly appropriate

02-04-2012, 11:34 PM	#148
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Is Jesus anything more than the embodiment of the divine οὐσία? Seriously. This is his practical function in the Church, in the same way that Colonel Sanders signs represent fried chicken. Right?

02-04-2012, 11:49 PM	#149
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I found the crosses on this coin from the time of Constantine quite interesting:

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