Clouseau

Probably preferable to the deep shame of incompetence. But then 'shame' has been struck out of the language, in the USA, anyway.

Stephen T-B

Perhaps Clouseau - despite his reluctance to give lessons in Theology - can (of his generoisity) help me out here.

I'd thought that god required a "perfect" sacrifice for our sins?
That "he" provided "himself" as that "perfect" sacrifice" to "himself".

A sacrifice this deity required to be made for the sins every human is born with, thanks to an error of judgment made by Adam and Eve when they were beguiled by a talking serpent which this god allowed into the Garden of Eden knowing full well what tricks it woluld get up to; knowing full well the frailties of the Man and Woman it had created - knowing full well that when they ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil they would know it was an evil god.

Have I gone wrong somewhere?

Clouseau

Indeed. Even six-year-olds can work out that the Eden story is just a story, an allegory. There is no error of judgement about sin. Sin is deliberate doing of what should not be done, with a compromised conscience as a result. We all have one of those, unless we accept that sacrifice. Ok, so sin is inevitable; but the solution is so very easy. And so very difficult.

Stephen T-B

"Even six-year-olds can work out that the Eden story is just a story, an allegory" (Clouseau)

Not all the Christians who post here will be pleased to be told that; many think it is a bit of real history.

"Sin is deliberate doing of what should not be done, with a compromised conscience as a result." (Clouseu)

I think this is simplistic in that it assumes we all have an innate knowledge of what is sinful.

I don't.

What do you think it is?

andy5

Clouseau mentioned something earlier I hadn't thought of-the bit about Jesus carrying the cross as yet another similarity to Isaac carrying the wood. Made me think, if indeed the details of the crucifixion were made to resemble this, was it truly common practice in that day to have the victim carry his cross? I don't know what research has said, maybe one of you does-surely the answer to that would go a long way either way for this particular theory.

Clouseau

Only if they are under six. The others are people posing as Christians, hoping to give their friends some sort of a target when aiming at Christianity.

Even dogs seem to know when they have done wrong. And chimps, certainly. Let alone six-year-olds!

Clouseau

The standard Roman practice was flagellation, followed by carrying of the cross-beam in public to a public place, subject to the imprecations of the crowd. (That unpopularity is what Jesus meant by "Carry your cross.") The upright was already in place, so those pics you see of Jesus (or an actor) carrying the upright are not quite right. The victim was fixed to the cross-beam, which was then hoisted onto the upright.

Stephen T-B

Even dogs seem to know when they have done wrong. And chimps, certainly. Let alone six-year-olds! (Clouseau).

So how do dogs and chimps know when they've done wrong?
And do cats know?

Dogs (and chimps), being social animals, are amenable to training by their elders and betters - whether canine or human (or chimpanzee).
Human infants can also be trained, and the training teaches them the difference between acceptable and unacceptablke behaviour, according to the mores of the society in which they are being brought up in.
A child brought up by a family of thieves will think that stealing (outside the family cirle) is OK. It won't steal from family members because last time it did that, it got a belting.
A child brought up with cannibals won't know that eating people is wrong.

If humans have an inmate sense of right and wrong, perhaps Clouseau can provide examples of it.

Clouseau

Sounds as though Clouseau will be wrong if he doesn't!

andy5

So it would appear that this then is a convincing argument for believers. Despite everything else which doesn't make sense, the fact that the old story mentions specifically that Isaac carried the wood would seem to those who believe that this was intentional so it would match up with what happened to Jesus. Faced with this, I have now no idea what to believe. Neither side seems to make sense, and it appears as though there can be no resolution.