Johnny Skeptic

No it isn't. It never has been and never will be in this life. Hundreds of millions of people have died without hearing the Gospel message because God deliberately withheld it from them. No amount of human effort could ever let everyone know about the Gospel message. This was especially true in the first century A.D.

How can the Bible be available to all when you claim that God chooses who he will reveal himself to?

No, my argument is that since God is willing that some will perish, when he could easily prevent some people from perishing by providing them with additional information that they would accept if they were aware of the information, rational minded and fair minded people are not able to will themselves to accept him. No man can fairly be held accountable for rejecting information that he would accept if he was aware of the information. If you have children, if they were drowning, you would not be willing that any of them perish. You would try to save all of them. More importantly, you would not be willing to withhold the Gospel message from any your children. You keep trying to focus on mankind, and I keep trying to focus on God. No belief system is any better than the foundation upon which it is built. The foundation of Christianity is God's supposed good character, not Pascal's Wager, aka risk, assessment. Jesus said that in order to become saved, a man must love God with all of his heart, soul, and mind. You can't convince anyone to love you based upon threats alone. Which do you consider to be a worse sin, that a man tells a lie about his age, or that he injures or kills someone, or allows someone to starve to death? If God told lies, you would not be able to love him, and yet you ask people to love a God who has committed numerous atrocities against mankind that are much worse than lying is, the worst atrocity being that he deliberately withholds information from some people who would accept him if they were aware of the information. Some other atrocities are as follows:

God causes people to become blind, deaf, and dumb, reference Exodus 4:11. You might claim that God does not directly cause people to become blind, deaf, and dumb, but allows people to become blind, deaf, and dumb. However, God could not allow anyone to become blind, deaf, and dumb if he did not set up a system that causes some people to become blind, deaf, and dumb. There is no such thing as a natural disaster. If God created hurricanes, they can only go where he makes them go. At present, humans cannot determine where hurricanes go. There are plenty of Scriptures that show that God directly killed people, so you can’t get away with claiming that God never directly kills people, including babies. God also kills innocent animals. Under our current legal system, God is guilty of breaking laws against negligence.

God punishes people for sins that their ancestors committed, reference Exodus 20:5.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the death penalty for a Jew who killed a Jew, but not for Jew who killed a slave. The Bible does not clearly oppose slavery. Just a few additional words, clearly stated, would have provided substantial benefits to mankind, but since God is not a moral compassionate being, he would have none of that.

James 2:14-22 say "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Since God has deliberately withheld food from millions of people who starved to death, including many Christians who must have asked him to provide them with food, he is a hypocrite. A better explanation is that he does not exist. If your goal is to feed hungry people, it would not make any sense at all to tell people who have food to feed hungry people but allow people to starve to death when you have plenty of food yourself. Matthew 14:14-20 say “And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes. He said, Bring them hither to me. And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.” Since God deliberately withheld food from one million people who starved to death in the Irish Potato Famine alone, it is doubtful that that Scripture is true.

No loving God would go out of his way to make it appear to millions of people that he does not exist. Today, either all tangible benefits are distributed entirely at random according to the laws of physics, or God distributes them indiscriminately to people regardless of their needs or worldviews. Regarding the former, that is exactly what is to be expected if God does not exist. Regarding the latter, that is exactly what is to be expected if God does not care about what peoples’ needs and worldviews are.

Gamera

No text is factual. Some text merely purport to be factual. That doesn't mean some aren't about things that actually were experienced. Like who won an election. But it does mean that you don't interpret texts like you have an experience.

There is no substantial difference between the Christian scriptures and any "historical" text of the time. All had an agenda. Indeed, the overtly Roman historical texts are overtly political, and hence very unreliable. Christian texts are writing outside the control of the Roman imperium and presumably are even less politically driven.

Gamera

Since you can't see outside the frame or behind the man, to say it is 'factual' is meaningless. It could be the man is a puppet that looks like a man. Or that a movie is being made in which a man is making a confession of Alah, while gun men force him, so that not only is the confession not factual, but the forced confession is fake.

You're always limited to the frame, a perspective, and hence you never can tell what the facts are. All you can say is that the video purports to be about this or that. And that's all you can say about any text.

Gamera

[QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;3912500].

God wants believers to preach the gospel. And that's what has happen and continues to happen.

Your confusing our time with that time. Jesus isn't here anymore, nor are the witnesses. All we have is texts. Sorry, it's just the way it is. So evidence isn't necessary or desirable.

Indeed, Jesus tells Thomas, who wanted evidence, that those that believe without evidence are more blessed.

Easy enough. God was doing something different with the Hebrews. In the iron age, everybody beleived in gods. The issue was which gods. There was nothing but miracles to those people since they didn't have science. Now we know better, and God is doing something different.

Don't know,don't care. Yes, but don't really care. One life at a time please.

What do you mean by allows? He allows people to make moral choices and harm other people only in the sense that he made us capable of moral choice.
Do you want to give up your moral choice.

Since God knows whether they would accept it if they did, maybe it doesn't matter. And maybe preaching the gospel if for the people who preach it, not for the hearers.

aa5874

Video cameras have been use successfully by law enforcement, undercover agents, security firms and even in homeland security to apprehend and control criminals and criminal activity.

It is strange when video is used to show that law enforcement are violating the law they claim that the video's frame is not valid. If frame is a problem, we might as well discard the picture in our passport, because it is not a full frame of our bodies.

Johnny Skeptic

Why do you assume that God wants believers to preach the gospel? If it is God’s position that preaching the gospel is a worthy and beneficial goal, he most certainly would not leave it all up to humans. He would be involved in preaching the gospel himself. He would not deliberately withhold it from people. Consider the following: Saving people from drowning at a beach is a worthy and beneficial goal. The mayor of a city has entrusted that goal to lifeguards at Beach A. The mayor shows up at Beach A to go swimming. Someone is drowning. No lifeguard is nearby. The major saves the drowning person himself because he knows that saving lives is a worthy and beneficial goal. No loving human would stand idly by a let a person drown if he was able to save him. No loving God would deliberately withhold the gospel message from people and tell his followers to preach the very same message that he refuses to preach. No amount of human effort could ever let everyone know about the gospel message. Regarding the spread of the gospel message in the first century, why do you believe that God discriminated against people who did not live in close proximity to the Middle East? Why do you believe that God discriminates against amputees? He sometimes heals people of cancer, right? Or, does he allow the world to run all by itself? How and why do you suppose that Hurricane Katrina went to New Orleans?

But my question was about back then, not now. Why was additional tangible evidence necessary or desirable back then even after the Holy Spirit came to the church?

Don’t you mean that the writer of John said that Jesus said that? Have you become an inerrantist? If John actually wrote that, how do you suppose that he acquired that information? John never claims to be an eyewitnesses to anything, nor do any of the other Gospel writers.

Don’t know, don’t care? My word, 2 Timothy 3:16 says “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” In the NIV, Paul says that it is not surprising that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, and that his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. The KJV mentions the words “Devil” and “Satan” 104 times. The majority of the references are in the New Testament, and yet you claim that you don’t care. Regarding life after death, there is no doubt whatsoever that the Bible says that life after death is the most important goal of Christians. Consider the following:

Matthew 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. (KJV)

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (KJV)

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (KJV)

Matthew 8:11-1 2

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (KJV)

1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. (KJV)

Romans 8:17-19

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (KJV)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us. (KJV)

Hebrews 11:24-25

24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter.

25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time.

26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (NIV)

1 Peter 2: 3-7 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade - kept in heaven for you,

5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

7 These have come so that your faith - of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire - may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (NIV)

Revelation 21:2-4

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (KJV)

http://wbsa.logos.com/article.asp?id=3589

The Physical Heavens:

Gen. 1:1 Job 37:18; Psa. 33:6; 136:5; Jer. 10:12.
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 50:6
Psa. 68:33
Psa. 89:29
Psa. 97:6
Psa. 103:11
Psa. 113:4
Psa. 115:16
Jer. 31:37
Ezek. 1:1
Matt. 24:29,30
Acts 2:19,20 See Sub-topics, below. Physical Heavens, Creation of:
Gen. 1:1
Gen. 2:1
1 Chr. 16:26
2 Chr. 2:12
Neh. 9:6
Job 9:8
Psa. 8:3
Psa. 19:1
Psa. 33:6,9
Psa. 148:4-6
Prov. 8:27
Isa. 37:16
Isa. 40:22
Isa. 42:5 Isa. 45:18.
Isa. 45:12
Jer. 10:12
Jer. 32:17
Jer. 51:15
Acts 4:24 Acts 14:15.
Heb. 1:10
Rev. 10:6
Rev. 14:7 See Heavens, New. See Creation; God, Creator. Physical Heavens, Destruction of:
Job 14:12
Psa. 102:25,26
Isa. 34:4
Isa. 51:6
Matt. 5:18
Matt. 24:35
Heb. 1:10-12
2 Pet. 3:10,12
Rev. 6:12-14
Rev. 20:11
Rev. 21:1,4

I am talking about God, not humans. If preventing people from starving to death is a worthy and beneficial goal, God most certainly would not leave it all up to humans. He would be involved in preventing people from starving to death himself. He would not tell believers via James that if a man refuses to feed hungry people that he is vain and his faith is dead and deliberately withhold food from starving people.

We have laws against negligence. Surely you approve of those laws. God is negligent, but you approve of his negligence. Why is that?

It definitely matters. Human nature being what it is, if Jesus returned to earth and healed all of the sick people in the world, something that Christian doctors are trying to do, surely some people would become Christians who were not previously convinced. Historically, many people have accepted outlandish claims based upon much less evidence.

If it doesn’t matter, why should anyone become a Christian? If being loving in this life is all that you are concerned about, as long as non-Christians are loving, isn’t that sufficient for you? A person can certainly be loving, healthy, happy, and well-adjusted without hearing the gospel message. The gospel message has not been around for the majority of human history, so obviously, God doesn’t really consider it to be that important.

How utterly absurd. A person must hear the gospel before he can preach the gospel. Did you actually mean "And maybe preaching the gospel is for the benefit of people who preach it, not for the hearers."?

rhutchin

This world produces enough food to feed everyone, yet people still die of starvation. This world has the resources to provide heath care to everyone, but people still die because they have no doctor. Will you claim otherwise?

The Bible exists and is available to everyone in the world, yet not everyone has a copy and not all those who have copies read it. There are reasons for this. One primary reason is that God has given the Johnny Skeptics of the world the freedom to withhold the Bible from others. It is true that God could intervene to prevent the Johnny Skeptics from doing this. It is true that God could snap His fingers and save everyone. He chose not to. God created a system in which He gave the Johnny Skeptics of the world the freedom (and power) to determine whether they would tell others about God. As you state, it is not a good system, but would you want God to force you to do those things that you did not want to do and override your desires with His own or would you want to be free to do as you please?

Two different things here. One is availability and the other is use. A person can have a book on calculus but if he never reads it and never invests the time to understand what he reads, he will never understand calculus. Similarly, a person can have a Bible but if he never reads it and never invests the time to understand what he reads, he will never understand what it says. God has chosen to reveal Himself to those who seek Him. Not everyone seeks God.



A man can be held accountable for his actions regardless whether he knows about God. God can determine that a person who lies or steals or murders will be denied entry into heaven. A person may lie or steal and murder and God can exclude that person from heaven even if the person does not know about heaven and does not know that his actions excluded him from entering heaven and does not know that he could have done something to get into heaven. However, all this information was known to two people at one time, Adam/Eve. It was possible for them to explain this to their children and then their children could explain it to their children. Along the way, many Johnny Skeptics appeared and decided that they would not explain these things to their children and now Johnny Skeptic complains that God is at fault. Why can’t people accept responsibility for their actions?

rhutchin

Would you deny that you have also been negligent also? It seems that you want to do that which pleases yourself and then have God negate all the bad things that happen because of what you do. However, if you really want God to offset the evil that you do, won't He have to put you in a jail cell so that you cannot do any harm to anyone? Do you want to be in jail where you will not be happy or do you want to be free to do those things that bring happiness to youself even where your happiness sometimes means that others will suffer?

Ignostic Morgan

The Tanakh and the Testament are both inextricably flawed in history and :wave: one cannot believe in their miracles unless one is gullible. Their morality is flawed, so one has to rely on what we find good or bad as the thread on humanist morality demonstrates . God's hiddenness provokes much philosophical debate. I find God is so hidden that He does not exist! The thread the definitive refutation of the free will argument demonstrates that God is of limited imagination . No amount of biblical citation lets God off the hook!Johnny wins hands down!:angel: :notworthy: Rhutchin just cannot fathom logic!:banghead: :huh:

Doug Shaver

OK. Let's imagine I want to read the Bible but Johnny won't let me.

Why is God letting Johnny do what he wants to do but not letting me do what I want to do?