Freethought & Rationalism Archive

la70119 · 01-27-2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

The pages you gave are skipped by Amazon.

I just checked amazon - pages 8 to 11 are available. No page 12 unfortunately. The same on google books - but page 13 is available with Hebrew and Aramaic terminology. It looks like page preview changes at whim. I originally typed quotations from google books. Here is a za link - don't know if it will work for you. It's an interesting book by the look of things. If all else fails you might try your local library.

http://books.google.co.za/books?id=E...nology&f=false

"No preview available" and I have already looked in my local Library and in the next county over. Nor is it at my local bookstore! :huh:

Chili · 01-27-2012, 05:01 PM

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Originally Posted by mrsonic

Quote:

It was the Sanhedrin, mostly wealthy, responsible, politically aware, politically-motivated Jews, who had him crucified, who did that; and they knew what they had done, so the responsibility

the carrier geezer says ,

jewish judges astonished by pete's claim that the jews killed jesus. the judges dismissed it as the ramblings of an illiterate commoner. so whats going on here? how is it possible that the jews forgot about what they did in matthews account?

jews say to pete , " you EVEN want to lay this mans blood on us"

Best thing they ever did and the way they ruffed up Matthew's Jesus too.

In reality they depicted the inner makings of a Divine Comedy and a Senecan tradedy and provide the intricate deatails between the two.

To be sure, the gates of heaven were 'opended' on earth and thus when Christ 'landed' hell came crashing down with it because you just cannot have these two opposites without the other, and this here is the exposition of it, and was done prior to 'the creation of heaven on earth' and so was 'the efficent cauue' for it ,and not an afterthought as essence must always precede existence in the normal course of creation = Intelligent Design in action.

Chili · 01-27-2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

The Jesus' of Matthew and Mark may as well be left hanging to do them a favor, but the one from Luke first became nown as Christ Jesus and then after Coronation became known as Jesus Christ and we still talk about him today.

Chili · 01-27-2012, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la70119

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

Exactly. They're supposed to stay there all day and if hanged alive, as long as it takes until the end of the day of their death. The burial was supposed to be quick and ignominious.

The rabbis who wrote the Mishnah later on changed all that because Sanhedrin 6 talks about one untying the ropes as another finishes tying them.

Huh? the ego left hanging to die?

Iskander · 01-27-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

The Jesus' of Matthew and Mark may as well be left hanging to do them a favor, but the one from Luke first became nown as Christ Jesus and then after Coronation became known as Jesus Christ and we still talk about him today.

What has the roman crucifixion got to with Deuteronomy?

Chili · 01-27-2012, 05:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by barre

The idea that Jesus was crucified by the Roman is widely attested as the above quote states. It is found in the synoptic gospels, in gospel sources (such as gMark), in Acts, Paul, Deutero-Pauline, Pastoral epistle (1 Timothy) 1 Peter, Hebrews as well as in secular sources mentioned in the above quote. How is the popularity of this notion best explained? Was it the result of an actual crucifixion of Jesus or whas it perhaps such an appealing fictional account that it "caught on?" Or is there another explanation to account for its widespread attestation?

You're confusing mentioned in many accounts with widespread attestation, not to mention misrepresenting: nowhere do any of the early documents, including Paul, say Jesus was crucified by the Romans, for example.

The Romans are Reason and the Law is 'the letter of Jewish law only' that was carved as if in stone upon the 'human heart' to serve as the anvil to make sin known to the hero he was, and so lead the upright Jew to the self conviction of sin, and this is where the woman who presides of over the TOL takes charge, and leads him as if by the nose to do his confession in Beth-le-hem, and there the rebirth takes place rigth smack in the very trough he was looking for = meaning of life.

Chili · 01-27-2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

The critical point in Deuteronomy 21 was BEING LEFT on the wood not merely being hanged.

The Jesus' of Matthew and Mark may as well be left hanging to do them a favor, but the one from Luke first became nown as Christ Jesus and then after Coronation became known as Jesus Christ and we still talk about him today.

What has the roman crucifixion got to with Deuteronomy?

This is about the words 'left hanging' as the reason to be left hanging.

Iskander · 01-27-2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

What has the roman crucifixion got to with Deuteronomy?

This is about the words 'left hanging' as the reason to be left hanging.

Jesus was not 'left hanging' on the cross.

Jesus had what appear to have been standard roman executions, which included leaving the executed to die on the cross and apparently were not taken down even after death.

It has nothing to do with Deuteronomy and nothing to do with the Jews either.

ahdenai · 01-27-2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood

If you stab a dead corpse, blood does not flow.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_a_dead_body_bleed

lmbarre · 01-27-2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally Posted by barre

The idea that Jesus was crucified by the Roman is widely attested as the above quote states. It is found in the synoptic gospels, in gospel sources (such as gMark), in Acts, Paul, Deutero-Pauline, Pastoral epistle (1 Timothy) 1 Peter, Hebrews as well as in secular sources mentioned in the above quote. How is the popularity of this notion best explained? Was it the result of an actual crucifixion of Jesus or whas it perhaps such an appealing fictional account that it "caught on?" Or is there another explanation to account for its widespread attestation?

You're confusing mentioned in many accounts with widespread attestation, not to mention misrepresenting: nowhere do any of the early documents, including Paul, say Jesus was crucified by the Romans, for example.

Perhaps "mentions" or "popularity" would be a better word to use that "attestation."

Paul would not need to explicitly state that it was the Romans who crucified Jesus as this would have been obvious. Who else could have? Paul does mention in 1 Cor 2:8 that "None of the rulers of this age understood it. If they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." Consequently, your insistence that Paul would always explicitly identify Jesus' crucifier is an unreasonable expectation. Do you not think that Paul thought that the Romans crucified Jesus? If not, then who?

GMark, a pre-Markan source has Jesus crucified by the Romans. I failed to mention that the crucifixion is mentioned also in John and Revelation.

So let me put it this way. How do you account for the popularity of the notion that Jesus was crucified?

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