Toto

Neopagans sitting around worshipping rocks are fairly harmless.

But the question here is whether early Christians were strict rationalists who did not believe in demons, devils, angelic visitations, or other supernatural events, and I don't think that the evidence supports Elijah's thesis.

Richard Carrier wrote his PhD thesis on science in the Roman Empire, and I believe I recall him saying in his talk that Augustine of Hippo was only concerned that Christians not appear to be idiots; but Christians did not adopt the scientific methods of the available pagan science. They preferred revelation and study of the scriptures.

Elijah

What part isn’t there evidence for, that the Jews and early Christians weren’t influenced by greek/platonic thought or that platonic idealism shouldn’t be understood rationally?

I don’t know what the scientific method really has to do with any of this. Rational thought comes with experience. Once you have enough experience to base your beliefs on, you put down the stories.

Roger Pearse

Not really the point, tho.

I've not seen Elijah's comments, but such a view would be a strange one. They were considerably more rationalistic than the pagans, tho; hence their description as 'atheists' by the latter.

Um, but surely "scientific methods of the available pagan science" is an anachronism, tho? There was no "available pagan science", no "scientific methods"; merely various forms of philosophy, which (in the light of later knowledge) we see contain the germ of later scientific ideas. Philosophy in antiquity did not mean only science; not even mainly so.

The attitude of the Fathers towards Greek philosophy has often been discussed, as you know. They were all hostile to the parts of philosophy that involved paganism, and neutral on the rest. I always refer people to the treatise of Severus Sebokht on the constellations.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Amaleq13

The complaint was about a plainly false claim that early Christians were not immersed in the supernatural. They most certainly were. That pagans were as well is irrelevant.

But this isn't directly relevant to Joe's OP so anyone wanting to continue this discussion should start a new thread.

Toto

Early Christians were influenced by the surrounding culture, which included Platonic thought. But it is not the case that "rational thought comes with experience." It only comes with experience that is analyzed and understood, and it has taken human civiliation several millenia to even come close to getting it right. We are still working at it - you can see how controversial "evidence based medicine" is today in what is supposed to be a scientific, rational field.

Humans did not evolve to survive by reason, and much reason goes against our instincts, our pareidolia, our tendencies towards confirmatory bias, and all of the other quirks that psychologists and professional skeptics have come to understand about why people believe weird things (or via: amazon.co.uk).

The "experience" of most Christians was that the world was corrupt, so it must be run by demons. There are people who still believe this today (check out Sarah Palin's church.)

It is true that Christians in (I think) the 4th century did go around destroying pagan temples to prove to the pagans that their gods were false gods who would not protect them. But they still believed in supernatural entities.

But this is a whole separate discussion.

Elijah

Split it?

I don't want to keep derailing the thread.

Toto

If you are interested in the subject, Richard Carrier wrote his PhD thesis on the question, which I understand will be published in a book. My notes on two lectures that he gave are in this thread.. You might review that for the source of my statements.

Otherwise, I am not sure what you want to discuss. Do you claim that all early Christians were rationalists who understood their scriptures as allegory? or that the leadership was? How long did this last and why were the Middle Ages so demon obsessed?

Elijah

I don’t claim that any one belief system or level of rationality encompasses any group be it Christian, Jew, Pagan or Idealist at any time or place. But I am claiming that Greek philosophy was influencing the early Christian movement not Greek religion and that Greek philosophy isn’t supernatural.

I think looking at what Christianity became today and thinking that is how it started is an error. Christianity is a completely pagan religion now, but before that it was a philosophical political movement founded by Hellenized Jews and philosophical thinkers.

Comparing the religious beliefs of the idiots in our day like the Pentecostals/Paulin and thinking that represents the whole of religious thinking back then is just biasness. The mix of idiots to thinkers is the same today as it was then and just like today there were people who were taking rational approaches to explaining the universe.

That’s why I say it’s better to give the writers the benefit of the doubt that they weren’t full of nonsense. It is better to give the fool the benefit of the doubt and misunderstand him by believing he is speaking rationally then it is to doubt the rational man and think he’s speaking gibberish making yourself look the fool.

Demons/spirits are rationally understood as reification of memes. From an idealistic standpoint ideas exist in a non temporal way that infiltrate men’s minds causing all kinds of problems. They should not be understood from a supernatural standpoint in my opinion. People have and do obviously but that is incorrect/childish thinking whether that thinking is in the majority or not.

I mean you know they were influenced by Platonic thought I’m sure, I’m just not sure if you know that philosophers like Plato weren’t supernatural philosophers. Or if you think it was the uneducated and not the educated individuals that were forming the religion maybe?

Toto

Aristotle was a non-supernaturalist. Plato might not have believed in the supernatural, but he was not a strict rationalist as I understand the term. He elevated imaginary forms over what could be observed.

Plato's "royal lie" seems to have appealed to some Christians.

This is an interesting theory, but what supports it? Have you read the Carrier thread where he discusses early Christian's approach to philosophy?

Why do you claim it is bias? What are your sources?

You are doing a lot more than giving writers the benefit of the doubt. You are reinterpreting their words and redefining their thoughts to be compatible with modern Enlightenment thinking.

Pagan opponents of Christianity did accuse them of a certain amount of gullibility and childishness.

Read the thread that I linked to.

Amaleq13

As far as I can tell, those tongue-speaking, snake-handling, slain-in-the-spirit, miraculously-healed ecstatics of today are quite similar to the Paul's early Christians and their "spiritual gifts" of tongues, healing, and prophecy. In fact, IIUC, they are quite proud that their practices have a clear basis in Christian Scipture.

What do you imagine constitutes the significant difference(s) between the two?

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (1Cor12:1-11, KJV)