gstafleu

You're right, I should have said "the author of Hebrews."
No it isn't. He compares the effect of Jesus death to the YK rites. I can compare the effects of the 9/11 attacks to the effects of the blitz on London. That doesn't mean I "associate" the one with the other.
If the author had been associating, sure. But he wasn't. He was just saying "Here we have this sacrifice by Jesus [which happened whenever, he didn't bother to specify, perhaps because the audience was thoroughly familiar with it], here is how it compares to the YK business."

Gerard Stafleu

Larsguy47

Well, in fact, that implies he would. I would think they were left up for at least 24 hours, and some might have lasted that long. So yes. I think a newly incarcerated person in reasonably good health might be able to last 24 hours. But Jesus was thoroughly exhausted by now and actually voluntarily gave up his life when everything was accomplished. The fact that the guards had to break the legs of the other two evildoers with Jesus indicates they must have still been alive. (John 19:32) Being able to push yourself up apparently had something to do with being able to breathe.

The rush to death before a full day or just when they would have died naturally was not to have the bodies left on the stake over the sabbath.

The context, though, in every way suggests that it would have been a surprise after just 18 hours that Jesus would have died since apparently with only nails in the hands and feet with the cross, though quite painful, if you could keep yourself pushed up or away from the cross in some way you could breathe. But if you were whole weight was pulled down from that position the strain on the lungs would have been too great and you'd die not being able to take a breath.

LG47

Larsguy47

This is not a fictional story. Lots of details had to be fulflled and Jesus was there to make sure the details of these scriptures were fulfilled. Like the fulfillment of the swords...

Luke 22:36 Then he said to them: “But now let the one that has a purse take it up, likewise also a food pouch; and let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one. 37 For I tell YOU that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, ‘And he was reckoned with lawless ones.’ For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment.” 38 Then they said: “Lord, look! here are two swords.” He said to them: “It is enough.”

Thus Jesus was very aware of the timetable. He knew he would be betrayed, arrested, his followers abandon him. And timetable is specific as well.

You see, Pentecost fulfills the time when holy spirit arrives which is a fulfillment of the "1290 days, 1335 days". That is, Pentecost is 50 days from the 15th and thus 45 days from the 20th, the actual day Jesus died. Jesus ministery was half a week, 3-1/2 years. But in 3-1/2 years there are usually 43 lunar months, rather than just 42 lunar months. The 43 lunar months are rounded to 1290 days. That's when Jesus' ministery ends after beginning it around the time of the Festival of Booths, shortly after his baptism. Thus dying just before the 8th day of the festival, a special sabbath day on the 20th as the 1290th day, means Pentocost occurs 45 days later to fulfill the 1335 days (Daniel 12:12).


So lots of specific fulfillment of chronology and time patterns are involved in one way or another by Jesus, and he sometimes directly stays on course with this schedule. At one time they were going to kill Jesus and he just pushed his way through the crowd because it wasn't the right time. So it's not "fiction" but planning.

You know, like planning a wedding on your 30th birthday or something. Nobody says, "Wow! What a coincidence!" because you planned it.

In this case, the Jewish custom was to release a prisoner to the people during Passover week and then have the execution of the others. So that work out for when Jesus would be executed by a delayed execution which might have taken place the day after he was condemned perhaps. So all the circumstances were lined up to occur just as prophesied, with Jesus sometimes directly making sure the letter of the prophecy was fulfilled.

LG47

Amaleq13

But Jesus wasn't in "reasonably good health" and Pilate knew it. He is, after all, the one who ordered him to be scourged.

It does not seem credible to me to suggest that Pilate would consider death after 18 hours sufficiently suprising for him to request confirmation.

More damaging to your argument, however, is the complete absence of any suggestion that the events described were extended to a second day. It is all described happening as though on the same day.

Larsguy47

I understand your position, however, your argument is circular. Pilate knew what condition Jesus was in but was surprised he had died simply means that Pilate expected him to still be alive after 18 hours. The other two evildoers were, who had to have their legs broken. So apparently, even if someone was in ill health, 18 hours is not like enough time for a person simply impaled that way to die. I mean, some other people who might have been scourged as Jesus had been or worse over time might have been observed to last a few days.

But for whatever reason, his being surprised Jesus had died is simply the record. We can only presume that apparently that method of torture didn't kill someone immediately. In fact, maybe that was part of the execution process. To expose the criminals to the public while naked to be scorned, to be in pain and die a slow death, maybe over a few days until they lost all their strength to hold themselves up at which point they asphyxiated.

Or, it's possible that Pilate, knowing Jesus had healed so many other people, that he could use some of those powers to keep himself alive at least a bit longer than the usual. So maybe that surprised him because he was expecting Jesus might not have died so quickly or not at all without being killed.

By the way, it wasn't the death it self Jesus was trying to get out of at the last minute when he said, "Take this cup from me." It was because he was a very, very modest and righteous man who had to die this shameful death, being NAKED in front of his whole family, his mother and disciples. It was something he just couldn't wrap his head around. Anything but that. You know? Everybody has that little blind spot and that was Jesus'. People die for causes all the time or to save a friend. So it wasn't death itself, but the embarrassing nature of that death.


But you make a good point and it is a legitimate (good) question you raise. But besides the usual, there are likely many other extenuating factors that might have made Pilate surprised Jesus had died after just 18 hours of impalement.


LG47

spamandham

Don't you realize that anyone could write a book that records a prophecy and the subsequent fulfillment of it. Authors of fictional works do this all the time.

If you don't start with the assumption that the Bible is "true", then passages like the one you highlighted argue that the story is fictional (or at least fictionalized), which is exactly the point I was making. Anyone who read this objectively without a Christian bias, would conclude it was a fabricated story. Whether or not it has some basis in some historical events is another issue, but the story as it stands is fiction.

Malachi151

And this is really one of the biggest issues. The very same things that make the story the most compelling are the things that make it so obviously fictional.

Larsguy47

My point was only that Jesus sometimes managed things so that the prophecies were fulfilled, which argues against the concept of "coincidence" which lends to disbelief to a degree.

What about the prophecy that the "great tribulation" would happen between 1940-1947? How did I make that work?

LG47

Larsguy47

Well, they say that "Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction."

LG47

Smohg

Nitpicking I know, but you're suggesting that Jesus was an evildoer.