Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vivo · 04-21-2007, 07:46 PM

Donnmathan,

Don't take that post, and the subsequent one, seriously. I didn't.

To answer your argument, please remember that absence of evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not evidence of absence.

Donnmathan · 04-21-2007, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivo

Donnmathan,

Don't take that post, and the subsequent one, serious, cause I didn't.

To answer your argument, please remember that absence of evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not evidence of absence.

Correct...but given that the FSM was created for the specific purpose of shooting holes in the credability of Creationism as science, I'm reasonably sure he doesn't exist. None the less, if someone managed to claim direct contact with him without snickering, laughing, or passing out from trying to hold in either activity, I'd be forced to give them the benefit of the doubt - barring signs of something more serious than delusional disorder. Frankly, I think there are a few people that (and I'm sure the guy that "created" him would be appalled by this) have convinced themselves he's real.

You know what I find sillier than that? People that believe in Scientology. It's founder admitted it was all made up, and STILL people who should know better go for it. Sheesh.

For the record...I didn't take it too seriously...read my post. Did I ever mention being offended? The viewpoint IS scientifically valid at the moment, though, and I wasn't sure how serious you were being.

Vivo · 04-21-2007, 08:12 PM

No problem man. I agree with you, Scientology is wack. What the hell nukes exploded a volcano and thetans and Xenu? There's gonna be a debate on it in the formal debates section, which should be cool.

You're right, there is no way to know for sure whether someone is claiming the truth about supernatural visions of Jesus, Vishnu, etc, but I think there is a fair deal of evidence corroborating that many of these visions/meetings/messages are little more than acts of fraud, or delusion.

I think these kind of delusions would be more often than not self-induced, or fancily interpreted. You know the rare phenomenon how, say, you're zoned out on the couch listening to music, and there's an assortment of random items on the coffee table in front you, and when you bring your eyes to focus in the strange half-light with your perspective the way it is, staring at those items, you really cannot discern what the f*#@ you're looking at. The picture is incomprehensible. Then you sit up and go, "Oh, that's what I was looking at. Just the rim of the hat beside the sweater." I should mention too how it's funny that if you return to your former position on the couch, or whatever the situation be, trying to fool your brain again, you can't do it, lol. (Yes, this is a metaphor for my becoming an atheist)

Koyaanisqatsi · 04-21-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Larsguy47: No, since that "indoctrination" would not include my experience. I've been indoctrinated to believe the Bible is true and it is or it isn't, but what I experienced was in the context of what the Bible had prophesied so it adds credibility to the experience and suggests I'm not simply hallucinating.

You were indoctrinated to believe the Bible is true. Presumably from childhood into your, what, twenties, thirties (i.e., to this day)? Do you understand what that means?

You then experienced something (that you curiously do not detail) that comes from that indoctrination and you conclude not that you were pre-programmed by your indoctrination to interpret your experience in that context, but instead that the context affirms your indoctrinated belief that the Bible is true.

IOW, you were essentially operantly conditioned to see black as white and then saw black as white. And this comes as a surprise to you?

Quote:

MORE: Well, I think mine is a little different. I'm actually mentioned and described rather specifically in the Bible. I don't think anyone else can claim that.

Au contraire. Anyone can "claim" that. Proving it, however? Well, we're all eyes. You've got the most skeptical audience you could possibly imagine and since you are clearly a budding Freudian case study simply by posting your tease here, have at it.

If it's an objective truth (as it must be given the context) lay it out and we will have no choice but to equally affirm your experience.

c davis · 04-21-2007, 08:55 PM

"If it's an objective truth (as it must be given the context) lay it out and we will have no choice but to equally affirm your experience.[/QUOTE]"

Yes, I gree if one could say there it is then it would be easy and we would all agree. But the fact is that it is a subjective experience and no one else can say there it is..............

Just as no one else can verify your subjective experiences............yes,..you have experienced God!:notworthy: ...............you can ask around get insights and opinion.......You can go to a head shrink and they too can give you some insight into what you may or had experience......

i think this forum.......make a very good point in asking questions about the sanity of some one who claim to have seen God or that God spoke to them.....asking them to kill or hurt another human being.....Your God is bigger then your God argument....

Everyone I think would agree that those thing come from a unbalanced mind.....although...throughout history people have killed each other in the name of God....

A healthy mind questions it own sanity...........it own reasons for a particular action.........unfortunately many religions leader do not do this...............

But I do use a measurement or "beach mark".............and that is has the experience made you a better person or not!............what has that experience left you with?

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivo

INNNNHHAAAAALLEEEEEEEEEE

delusional,crazy,notallthere,coo-coo,deranged,loony,wacko,nuts,psycho,bonkers,crack ed,gonzo,screwy,unhinged,raving,mental,apeshit,mad ,funnyinthehead,fuckedup,christian

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Relieved.

See, I told you it would feel good.

I go out on the deck every so often and curse the continent 2000 to 3000 miles away to the north east and east (depending on direction). Its really good for the mind set.

Then I reassure the sea its dong the best it can under the circumstances. Then I play with my cats. They like it too, the little one stands looking out through the pickets and meows. Her mom just waits with a dark gored look for breakfast.

Donnmathan · 04-21-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivo

No problem man. I agree with you, Scientology is wack. What the hell nukes exploded a volcano and thetans and Xenu? There's gonna be a debate on it in the formal debates section, which should be cool.

You're right, there is no way to know for sure whether someone is claiming the truth about supernatural visions of Jesus, Vishnu, etc, but I think there is a fair deal of evidence corroborating that many of these visions/meetings/messages are little more than acts of fraud, or delusion.

I think these kind of delusions would be more often than not self-induced, or fancily interpreted. You know the rare phenomenon how, say, you're zoned out on the couch listening to music, and there's an assortment of random items on the coffee table in front you, and when you bring your eyes to focus in the strange half-light with your perspective the way it is, staring at those items, you really cannot discern what the f*#@ you're looking at. The picture is incomprehensible. Then you sit up and go, "Oh, that's what I was looking at. Just the rim of the hat beside the sweater." I should mention too how it's funny that if you return to your former position on the couch, or whatever the situation be, trying to fool your brain again, you can't do it, lol. (Yes, this is a metaphor for my becoming an atheist)

Sounds like the kind of thing that led to my deconversion from Christianity into my current bizarre mix of paganism, Buddhism, and pantheism. Hasn't gone any further yet because of the kind of personal experiences we're discussing, and I doubt it will. I'm quite happy were I'm at, except for the occasion irritation at people who assume that because I've had an experience they haven't, I'm somehow a threat to society and science education in the US...despite my unwavering support for evolution in the evo/creation debate. :huh:

RAFH · 04-21-2007, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnmathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnmathan

But how did my delusions direct me to do simple things that helped both me and others in bigger ways than the task seemed to promise? I can't believe in that many coincidences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

Do you have verifiable examples?

For what, a hypothetical question?

That's a hypothetical question? You asked how did your delusions direct you to do simple things that helped both you and others un bigger ways than the task seemed to promise and stated you can believe in that many coincidences, all in a context of divine contact during meditation or while otherwise engaged in normal waking activity without any influence of drugs. That would seem to indicate you are offering your reported experiences as evidence of divine contact. That's like waving a red flag in front of a bull in these forums. Did you expect no response, no challenge to such an assertion?

I am simply asking if you have any verifiable documentation for these reported evidences of divine contact. If you have such, it would be very important. If you don't have such, they remain in the realm of annecdotal tales.

Steve Weiss · 04-21-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larsguy47

Here's something on the existence of God beyond faith. What if you have a personal experience that to you seems real in which God actually speaks with you (in a vision or some mental state), and that's your new reference that God exists?

Then what if that experience is consistent with your previous belief system, such as the Bible, where God is described, for instance, and he appears precisely that way? Others, outside your experience, of course, have no choice but to think your crazy or on drugs, but they'd think that about anybody making that claim whether it was true or not, so it doesn't matter. Even so, subjectively speaking, the only reason others don't believe is because they haven't had similar experiences.

At any rate, if you believe your experience is real then you have no choice but to believe God is real. The Bible prophesied some miracles would start to take place close to when the 1000-year millennium begins, first among the chosen ones, so once those things start to really happen a group of people on the planet will have their "confirmation" that God really exists before many others, who will get their confirmation at the very least, at Armageddon much like those at the time of Noah's flood.

So it's an interesting topic for the "claivoyant" who have supernatural experiences they believe consistent with God. For instance, since I believe in my mind that my experience was real and it is consistent with what the Bible claims would happen I have no doubt that God is real, and as such, that question of "Does God Exist?" no longer applies to me and/or others with personal contact.

LG47

See Julian Jayne's "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind."

Iacchus · 04-21-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Weiss

See Julian Jayne's "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind."

I have a copy of it, but never really got around to reading it. It's supposed to be a good book.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

04-21-2007, 07:46 PM	#41
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	Donnmathan, Don't take that post, and the subsequent one, seriously. I didn't. To answer your argument, please remember that absence of evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster is not evidence of absence.

04-21-2007, 08:12 PM	#43
Vivo Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 379	No problem man. I agree with you, Scientology is wack. What the hell nukes exploded a volcano and thetans and Xenu? There's gonna be a debate on it in the formal debates section, which should be cool. You're right, there is no way to know for sure whether someone is claiming the truth about supernatural visions of Jesus, Vishnu, etc, but I think there is a fair deal of evidence corroborating that many of these visions/meetings/messages are little more than acts of fraud, or delusion. I think these kind of delusions would be more often than not self-induced, or fancily interpreted. You know the rare phenomenon how, say, you're zoned out on the couch listening to music, and there's an assortment of random items on the coffee table in front you, and when you bring your eyes to focus in the strange half-light with your perspective the way it is, staring at those items, you really cannot discern what the f*#@ you're looking at. The picture is incomprehensible. Then you sit up and go, "Oh, that's what I was looking at. Just the rim of the hat beside the sweater." I should mention too how it's funny that if you return to your former position on the couch, or whatever the situation be, trying to fool your brain again, you can't do it, lol. (Yes, this is a metaphor for my becoming an atheist)

04-21-2007, 08:55 PM	#45
c davis Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: australia Posts: 129	"If it's an objective truth (as it must be given the context) lay it out and we will have no choice but to equally affirm your experience.[/QUOTE]" Yes, I gree if one could say there it is then it would be easy and we would all agree. But the fact is that it is a subjective experience and no one else can say there it is.............. Just as no one else can verify your subjective experiences............yes,..you have experienced God!:notworthy: ...............you can ask around get insights and opinion.......You can go to a head shrink and they too can give you some insight into what you may or had experience...... i think this forum.......make a very good point in asking questions about the sanity of some one who claim to have seen God or that God spoke to them.....asking them to kill or hurt another human being.....Your God is bigger then your God argument.... Everyone I think would agree that those thing come from a unbalanced mind.....although...throughout history people have killed each other in the name of God.... A healthy mind questions it own sanity...........it own reasons for a particular action.........unfortunately many religions leader do not do this............... But I do use a measurement or "beach mark".............and that is has the experience made you a better person or not!............what has that experience left you with?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.