IamMoose

Gosh, I see you DO want me to give you a list. Fair enough.

This is off the top of my head, with no research done. If I researched it, I daresay I'd find a great deal more.

Similarities between Mithraism and Christianity:

Virgin birth.

25 December a significant date.

A 'saviour' dying for the people's sins.

Miracles.

A resurrection.

Any of this sound oddly familiar? . I am sure you're about to trot out the old 'God was preparing the pagan world for Jesus' line and if it comforts you to believe that, so be it. Really though, you have to imagine what that looks like from the outside... desperate, frankly!

Eazy

Please do.

No, he was not born of a virgin. His mother was a virgin. But he was born from solid rock. He was also born an adult.

It's actually his birth. But this was incidentally also the winter solstice. All relligions, and all walks of life celebrated this popular holdiay at the time. So this wasn't something that was exclusive to Mithraism.

Furthermore, even in the gospels there isn't a date for Christ's birth, so most Christians would know that it is just a symbolic day to celebrate his birth, and not the literal day of his birth.

No, he didn't die for anyone's sins. In fact, he didn't die at all. The last thing
Mithras did before he ascended to the heavens was kill the bull. Mithras didn't die, the bull did.

This doesn't qualify as copying because it isn't unique.

For someone to resurrect, they have to die first. Mithras didn't die. Subsequently to slaying the bull he ascended into the heavens.

Iranian Mithraism(which didn't bear any resemblance or relation to Roman Mithraism) was the only one that pre-dates Christianity. Roman Mithraism's earliest evidence dates back to 90 A.D.(after the establishment of Christianity) and almost all of its "similarities" to Christianity are not real. All other similarities are only tangential.

IamMoose

Sorry but that is not true .. may I ask where you got it from? I don't have much time for research now but the very first website I visited gave me this:

"In 67 B.C., the first congregation of Mithras-worshipping
soldiers existed in Rome under the command of General
Pompey".

In addition to the facts I presented above, some similarities that I had forgotten:

Mithras (Mithra?) had 12 followers, who broke bread and drank wine to symbolise their deity's body. Again, does this sound familiar? One of these facts, maybe even two, I could accept as coincidence. When there are 8 or 10 major similarities, I simply don't think it's intellectually honest to deny there's a link. You could at least resort to the old 'God was preparing the world for Jesus' line though!! :rolling:

Eazy

Due to Acharya S., Freke and Gandy, and the plethora of pages of misinformation on the internet, Roman Mithraism doesn't even resemble what it actually was. The very midrash that mythers try to accuse Christianity of, has contributed to this.

I would like to see your source. No, not the webpage(since most mythers leave out their 'works cited'). I would like to see the webpage's sources.

My sources use actual Mithraic scholarship, and do not self-appoint themselves, so. Here's one rather impartial page for you. It was done by a Non-Christian(if you care): http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/mith/whatmithisnt.htm

I'm glad you recognize it as the exclusive, esoteric, millitary religion it was, though. And not the popular competitor to Christianity that people usually falsely ascribe to it.

No Mithras and Mithra are not the same. Mithra is the figure from Iranian Mithraism. Mithras is from Roman Mithraism. They're not related.

No, that was the zodiac, not disciples. He had at most, 2 disciples, which were the 2 torch bearers present at his birth, and almost all other Mithraic inscriptions.

No, there was no Eucharist. The earliest evidence of this practice in Persian Mithraism was medieval.

I would appreciate it if you weren't so condescending.

Biff the unclean

That's nonsense you know. When Roman Mithraism and Persian split the Persian did not disappear. A good percentage of the Roman Legions in the west were Persian Mithrains. You'll even find the ruins of their temples still in Northern England. These were the Legions that were lead by Constantine before he became Emperor.
You'll even find the ruin of their main temple in the sub-basement of the Vatican. Even the original "Throne of Saint Peter" that the Pope sat on, until it was replaced in the 1600's, was decorated with carvings of Mithra slaying the cosmic bull. Even the title "Pope" comes from the Mithrains as the Protestants of the reformation knew full well. As did the French Revolutionaries who wore the caps of Mithra (those Smuf hats) as protest against the Catholic Church.

Eazy

Persian and Iranian Mithraism(which are the only ones that pre-date Christianity) are wholly independent of Roman Mithraism. They don't have a slaying of a bull, nor any of the other characteristics of Roman Mithraism. They are only common in name. Mithraic scholars have tried to link the 2, but without engaging in Acharya S.'s straw grasping, they have found that there aren't any legitimate links

I would like to see your sources. Mythers seem quite fond of leaving out their sources, and I'm not taking web pages or Doherty's pseudo-history at face value.

This seems irrelevant anyway. What does it matter if they wore "smurf hats" in protest of the Catholic church?

Also, once again, if you are talking about Roman Mithraism, the name is Mithras. Not Mithra. These are two different figures, and the names are not interchangeable either(ex: Bob and Robert).

Biff the unclean

My source is that I took the guided tour of the Vatican and saw them.

If you don't know about something as basic as the hat then you are showing that you have no information about Mithra

Yeah Reeeeeeeally different. Like Protestant and Catholic.
Please go to the library to read about this instead of hooking on to a blurb on a website. You might try Campbell's Masks of God: Occidental Mythology.

And by the bye Jesus had 12 Apostiles because of the zodiac. 12 is a magic number, that's why the Christian Bible insists on "The Twelve" even though it names 14.

Eazy

No, I'm talking about the history of them. Not the actual carvings themselves.

Yes, I know about the hat. It's the hat that Mithras was born with. But I don't see how it is relevant to Christianity.

Don't trivialize this. The fact that you are retreating is becoming apparent.

I would suggest the same to you. Read some actual Mithraic scholarship. Mithraic scholarship, requires that one be well versed in some of the most archaic, and esoteric languages, and traditions. Campbell is not exclusively a Mithraic scholar.

Show me a legitimate link between Persian Mithraism and Roman Mithraism. Show me a legitimate link between Mithra and Mithras. Show me that any of the "similarities" between Christianity and Roman Mithraism are true(ex: He resurrected, was born of a virgin, etc.).

Here's another link, which goes in-depth: http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

I can give you more.

Here are some books as well(I have not read these but these are a couple of the webpages' sources):
Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World
Cumont, Franz. The Mysteries of Mithra.
Clauss, Manfred. The Roman Cult of Mithras: The God and his Mysteries

I can give you more of these as well. But if you're going to read a book on Mithraism make sure it is published after or around the 70's, and its author is qualified ofcourse.

Now it's your turn to produce legitimate sources.

You've back-peddled from "Mithras had 12 disciples" to "12 is a magic number". Amazing.

Amlodhi

Hello Eazy,

Actually, Franz Cumont's work (which is just over 100 yrs. old now) argues for an Iranian/Roman Mithraic connection. Many of his suggested connections, however, were extremely dubious. Such as his suggestion that the "dog" and the "snake" in a depiction of the Tauroctony were symbolic of the forces of "good" and "evil" and, thus, harkened back to the concept of Persian dualism.

In 1971, the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies (held at Manchester Univ.) pretty much (rightly, IMO) relegated Cumont's tenuous allusions to the dustbin.

As for David Ulansey, he also tends to outrun the information. Although, his evaluation that the symbology of the Tauroctony is astronomical in nature is (again, IMO) spot on. And this remains whether the Roman Mithras cult fully understood the origins of their religion or not.

Manfred Clauss (with Richard Gordon): In all, probably the best scholarly work available. Clauss believes the Roman Cult of Mithras was invented in Rome at the end of the 1st century A.D.

It is my current and humble opinion, however, that "invented" is a too strong term. That we do not possess a chain of physical evidence marking continuity between the Persian Mithra cult and the later Roman cult of Mithras, does not establish that the Mithras cult was fabricated out of whole cloth.

Indeed, it is my suspicion that the astronomical symbology of the Tauroctony may have roots that extend back to the origin of the Apis bull cult of Egypt.

Thus, while it is unlikely in the extreme that the Roman Mithras cult could have had a direct influence on Christian iconography, many roots tend to meld into single roots as one traces back along the growth path.


Amlodhi

Celsus

Not that anyone should notice, but I've been summarising Walter Burkert's introductory text on the mystery religions here: Ancient Mystery Cults

There is a lot of crap out there, particularly with respect to alleged "parallels" foisted by the likes of Acharya S and Freke & Gandy, of whom we can safely pay no attention to. The above link is a summary of the view of a reputed and widely-cited scholar. Oh yes, and also, see here: Putting the mystery to rest

Joel