Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fatpie42 · 05-07-2006, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar

Well, he has a point. For example:

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

The SAB lists it as:

Jesus has white hair, eyes of fire, feet of brass, and has a sword sticking out of his mouth.

And:

2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I'm pretty sure that particular passage was following the long tradition of epic poetry when descibing its hero. So there is something of a point. However, there are plenty of other absurdities that can't be as easily explained away such as:

Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. "And the Lord smelled a sweet savor." After this God "said in his heart" that he'd never do it again because "man's heart is evil from his youth." So God killed all living things (6:5) because humans are evil, and then promises not to do it again (8:21) because humans are evil. The mind of God is a frightening thing. 8:20-21

God tells the Israelites to smear some blood on their doors. That way when he's going around killing Egyptian children, he'll remember not to kill their children too. He probably said to himself when he saw the blood, "Oh yeah, I remember now. I not supposed to kill the children in this house."

Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. He did this to show the world how much God hates figs.

If you do "not doubt in your heart" you can cast a mountain into the sea (or kill a fig tree, or whatever).

Jesus thanks God that only the ignorant and foolish will listen to him. Luke: 10:21

The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm

On the one hand I would say that the skeptics annotated Bible looks rather too cocky to take an interest in serious Biblical criticism, but on the other hand I don't think the audience is meant to be those who take Biblical criticism seriously, but those who take the Bible entirely literally.

For someone who thinks that the killing of the fig tree is a symbolic gesture linked to the Sadducees and thinks that the smearing of blood on their doors was a ritualistic expression of identity, the ideas expressed above seem over sarcastic and rather silly (and of course they are meant to be).

However, for someone who thinks the killing of a fig tree was an example of the miraculous God-power of Jesus and doesn't like symbolism this is a bit of a slap-in-the-face in a way that it wouldn't be for the serious biblical scholar. Also if they think the angel of death needed to see blood on their doors to recognise which houses to visit they have, once again, taken a rather naive view of the passage (reminds me of that question "What does Father Christmas do if there isn't a fireplace or if the chimney has been blocked off?"). Once again the biblical scholar often won't see it as a literal angel wandering around Egypt looking for houses without lamb's blood on the door.

Wayne Delia · 05-07-2006, 06:59 AM

Example of verses taken "out of context:"

Matthew 27:5 - "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself."
Luke 10:37 - "Go and do likewise."

Example of verses not taken out of context:

1 John 4:8 - "God is love."
1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous (envious)."
Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God."

It is my experience that the "taken out of context" defense is the ultimate dishonest catch-all cop-out excuse an apologist has in his toolbox; it's the theistic equivalent of "Fuck you!" when ammunition is gone at the end of an argument.

WMD

fragmentsofdreams · 05-07-2006, 09:30 AM

It can be a cop out, but as the quotations from the SAB show, it does take verse out of context if doing so can put the Bible in a more negative light.

I do think that someone who claims something is out of context does have an obligation to explain why.

regis · 05-07-2006, 11:28 AM

How could anything 'put the bible in a more negative light'? Any reading with the blinders off will show it for the malevolent madness that it is.

:devil1:

purple_kathryn · 05-07-2006, 11:31 AM

What I don't get is how can any say what it really means when it's been translated from a dead language and revised to suit.

sodium · 05-07-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

Once again the biblical scholar often won't see it as a literal angel wandering around Egypt looking for houses without lamb's blood on the door.

I think this shows an important point about the context complaint. Usually, when we say that something is taken out of context, we mean the context of the surrounding text. I get the impression that the complaint that Biblical passages are taken out of context generally means that the Christian interprets the whole passage as part of a complex theology, and that you are ignoring that theology. It can also, of course, just be an automatic response to a list of short unwholesome quotes. These must be out of context.

sodium · 05-07-2006, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berthold

Well, a plausible theory is that the historical Jesus was an end-time prophet (several more things in this vein can be found in the NT), whose community had to adapt when the end of the world refused to come. No priest would admit such a thing, but somehow they have to deal with it.

I think it's more that Christianity has it's roots in people who were vagabonds, and who had no interest in trying to run a society. So, the message is, don't worry about your economic well-being, don't worry about imposing some system of laws, just spread the gospel. This could have worked indefinitely, but for one major problem. They were too successful. We ended up with societies predominantly made up of Christians. But Christianity was never meant to be an organizing principle of society. It was made to exist in the shadows of a pagan civilization. Suddenly all that stuff about "judging not" and "resist not evil" had to be given new, more sophisticated interpretations. Or, new "context" to use the current phrase.

This has allowed new Christian groups (like Jehovah's Witnesses and the Robert's Group/Garbage Eaters) to adopt similar attitudes to the original Christians, and view the rest of Christian society as basically the same old pagans.

Her pinkness saves · 05-07-2006, 12:07 PM

2 Kings, 2:23-24.
In what context does the slaughtering of children become acceptable?

WishboneDawn · 05-07-2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

A form of defence that some christians use in regard to the more unpalatable verses in the bible is to claim that they are being taken out of context.
Thoughts?

Sometimes it's true. Watch who claims that though as I've found some conservative christians have a wonderful talent for the very same thing.

Tigers! · 05-07-2006, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purple_kathryn

What I don't get is how can any say what it really means when it's been translated from a dead language and revised to suit.

Which part(s) was translated from a dead language? Last time I looked Hebrew was alive, Greek was alive though Aramaic is looking pretty sick.

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05-07-2006, 06:59 AM	#12
Wayne Delia Contributor Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Posts: 10,056	Example of verses taken "out of context:" Matthew 27:5 - "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." Luke 10:37 - "Go and do likewise." Example of verses not taken out of context: 1 John 4:8 - "God is love." 1 Corinthians 13:4 - "Love is not jealous (envious)." Exodus 20:5 - "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." It is my experience that the "taken out of context" defense is the ultimate dishonest catch-all cop-out excuse an apologist has in his toolbox; it's the theistic equivalent of "Fuck you!" when ammunition is gone at the end of an argument. WMD

05-07-2006, 09:30 AM	#13
fragmentsofdreams Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Picture postcard place Posts: 2,376	It can be a cop out, but as the quotations from the SAB show, it does take verse out of context if doing so can put the Bible in a more negative light. I do think that someone who claims something is out of context does have an obligation to explain why.

05-07-2006, 11:28 AM	#14
regis Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: calgary, ab Posts: 690	How could anything 'put the bible in a more negative light'? Any reading with the blinders off will show it for the malevolent madness that it is. :devil1:

05-07-2006, 11:31 AM	#15
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	What I don't get is how can any say what it really means when it's been translated from a dead language and revised to suit.

05-07-2006, 12:07 PM	#18
Her pinkness saves Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: canada Posts: 852	2 Kings, 2:23-24. In what context does the slaughtering of children become acceptable?

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