Freethought & Rationalism Archive

punk77 · 03-25-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

That is Matthew 17:9
http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_17.htm

I would like to ask the atheists how Jesus KNEW he was going to raised from the dead if he was merely a "man" and not God who knows everything. How is this possible, atheists?

Jesus might have known that he was going to come back from the dead in Matthew 17:9 (according to the Bible) but he seems to have forgotten it in Matthew 27:46 (according to the Bible) www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_27.htm“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” It sounds that God played a bit of a 'dummy' with Jesus who, according to the Trinity and Half Life

, is God himself anyway

.

David B · 03-25-2006, 12:50 PM

The bottom line is that only prophesies that can be demonstrated to have been made before the events allegedly predicted took place count as predictions - amomg other criteria.

Since, as others have mentioned, the gospels were written well after the death (assuming for the moment that he existed at all) of Jesus, tjhis is not established.

And, for that matter, neither has his alleged death been substantiated from contemporary records.

Now - what about some response back from you, Half Life?

David B

David B · 03-25-2006, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

"plain english" is just an expression used when we mean something said clearly. Now, you must prove this was written after he died.

Obviously the gospels were written after jesus allegedly died, since they recount an account of his FUCKING DEATH!!!! Duh!!!

David B (would appreciate a response to this point)

hallq · 03-25-2006, 02:08 PM

I'm tempted to tell the rest of the IIDB to ignore stupidity like this. But we really should try to help people suffering from confused thinking.

Half-life: try thinking in terms of Occam's razor. Don't multiply postulated entities without necessity. If extraterestrial visitation isn't necessary to explain a strange light in the sky, if weather baloons can explain it, don't postulate ET visitation. If psychic power's aren't necessary to explain some guru's feats, if magic tricks can explain them, don't postulate psychic powers. If the "prophecy," not written down until after the fact, could be a later invention, don't postulate Jesus was omniscient.

It should be noted, though, that there is a third possibility. It could be that such a prophecy was in a sense self-fulfilling in that it was made and either primed the disciples to hallucinate or inspired them to hoax the resurrection.

P.S. Oh, another example of Occam's razor in action: if levitation isn't needed to explain this photo, if it could be fake, don't postulate levitation.

WishboneDawn · 03-25-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

That is Matthew 17:9
http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_17.htm

I would like to ask the atheists how Jesus KNEW he was going to raised from the dead if he was merely a "man" and not God who knows everything. How is this possible, atheists?

You can ask us theists this too.

Matthew may have been exercising creative licence. He was very much into predictions and prophecies. Get your head out of this 'NT as PBS documentary' idea. It's much more Masterpiece Theatre and the Gospels reflect as least as much about the ideas and views of their authors as they do about Jesus.

God did not write it. It is not inerrant and infallible. Men, full of ideas and biases and passions, wrote it.

jjramsey · 03-25-2006, 02:38 PM

Here's a thought. What if Jesus did predict his own resurrection (perhaps based on a misinterpretation of Hosea 6:2?), and it was this prediction that led the disciples to believe that he must have been resurrected? I wouldn't say that is necessarily what happened, but it's not an unreasonable possibility.

The fundamental problem is that the Gospels are not reliable documents, and they can be expected to be the least reliable when they are relaying the stories that their authors want us to believe the most. The accounts of the resurrection are among those stories.

uncool · 03-25-2006, 02:45 PM

Finally, there is the possibility that Jesus thought he would, because he thought he was the Messiah - and that he was wrong, and that stories were made up to prove him right.
=uncool=

Half-Life · 03-25-2006, 03:14 PM

You guys are right, I have not considered the possibility that they could have added those things in after Jesus died. But, my question is, what is the point? If I make up words that someone said when they are already dead, what would I gain out of it? There was no point for Matthew to make anything up.

Chili · 03-25-2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

ALL of the NT, including the gospels, was written after Jesus died.

It is written so we might be able to fully enjoy life after metamorphosis instead of going to the doctor for yin-yang medicine to suppress it.

ETA that I linked this to yin-yang medicine to show that renewal is a native urge in man and not just the preachers idea.

punk77 · 03-25-2006, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Half-Life

You guys are right, I have not considered the possibility that they could have added those things in after Jesus died. But, my question is, what is the point? If I make up words that someone said when they are already dead, what would I gain out of it? There was no point for Matthew to make anything up.

Actually your question was

'I would like to ask the atheists how Jesus KNEW he was going to raised from the dead if he was merely a "man" and not God who knows everything. How is this possible, atheists?'

and as you have been shown various refutations of your position you have decided to ignore them and change the question:rolling:.

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03-25-2006, 12:50 PM	#12
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	The bottom line is that only prophesies that can be demonstrated to have been made before the events allegedly predicted took place count as predictions - amomg other criteria. Since, as others have mentioned, the gospels were written well after the death (assuming for the moment that he existed at all) of Jesus, tjhis is not established. And, for that matter, neither has his alleged death been substantiated from contemporary records. Now - what about some response back from you, Half Life? David B

03-25-2006, 02:08 PM	#14
hallq Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 204	I'm tempted to tell the rest of the IIDB to ignore stupidity like this. But we really should try to help people suffering from confused thinking. Half-life: try thinking in terms of Occam's razor. Don't multiply postulated entities without necessity. If extraterestrial visitation isn't necessary to explain a strange light in the sky, if weather baloons can explain it, don't postulate ET visitation. If psychic power's aren't necessary to explain some guru's feats, if magic tricks can explain them, don't postulate psychic powers. If the "prophecy," not written down until after the fact, could be a later invention, don't postulate Jesus was omniscient. It should be noted, though, that there is a third possibility. It could be that such a prophecy was in a sense self-fulfilling in that it was made and either primed the disciples to hallucinate or inspired them to hoax the resurrection. P.S. Oh, another example of Occam's razor in action: if levitation isn't needed to explain this photo, if it could be fake, don't postulate levitation.

03-25-2006, 02:38 PM	#16
jjramsey Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tallmadge, Ohio Posts: 808	Here's a thought. What if Jesus did predict his own resurrection (perhaps based on a misinterpretation of Hosea 6:2?), and it was this prediction that led the disciples to believe that he must have been resurrected? I wouldn't say that is necessarily what happened, but it's not an unreasonable possibility. The fundamental problem is that the Gospels are not reliable documents, and they can be expected to be the least reliable when they are relaying the stories that their authors want us to believe the most. The accounts of the resurrection are among those stories.

03-25-2006, 02:45 PM	#17
uncool Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In another plane of existence Posts: 945	Finally, there is the possibility that Jesus thought he would, because he thought he was the Messiah - and that he was wrong, and that stories were made up to prove him right. =uncool=

03-25-2006, 03:14 PM	#18
Half-Life Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: A place in the Northern Hemisphere of Planet Earth Posts: 1,250	You guys are right, I have not considered the possibility that they could have added those things in after Jesus died. But, my question is, what is the point? If I make up words that someone said when they are already dead, what would I gain out of it? There was no point for Matthew to make anything up.

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