Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Killer Mike · 02-24-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muTron the homeless

I'm not buying the mental illness claim. I've seen theists try to argue that card against atheists with the lame "Atheists suffer from a hatred of their earthly fathers which translates to rebellion against their heavenly father...with proper couseling all will be well"

Religious belief seems a bit more complex to me than to throw it off as equivalent to taking prozac for depression.

Similarly, I am curious about the Religion = Santa for adults line of thinking. Two thoughts that pop in my head.

1) Is this in regards to all theism or only Xianity
(i know one said earlier that Deism would also be a mental illness so I am guessing yes...)

2) Are we really claiming that the tens of thousands of years old tradition of religious belief spawned from pre-historic humans and continues to this day, a tradition that mind you has fueled some of the most horrible actions against humanity and also some of her greatest triumphs, is really an intellectually equivalent myth to Santa Clause, and therefore comparable? Or is this the sort of claim one would make to piss off a Fundy all the while not really taking it very seriously?

I would recommend "The Mind of the Bible Believer" by Edmond Cohen. Dr. Cohen is a former university professor and holds his PhD in psychology from Case Western Reserve University in Clevaland.. He is probably the worlds leading authority on the subject and spent most of his career researching and treating patients who were former fundy's. The core psychological pathology is that of dissociation. Other factors come into play as well. Check it out :thumbs:

Oxymoron · 02-24-2005, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

I have to say, I didn't much care for the "Religion as mental illness" bit in the OP - though I've known some very abnormal people who've been very religious. Indeed, some churches seem to harbour more than their fair share of them, and I can speculate as to why, but I don't think what I'd have to say on the subject is particularly useful.

Well not only that. Read the bible, or the qu'ran (etc) - utterly jam-packed with schizophrenic imagery. Religion: by the mentally ill, for the mentally ill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

My view is that there's a paradox at the heart of religious faith: the believer constantly looks for evidence to prove the reality of the god he/she believes in, but if ever if it were unambiguously supplied, belief would be made redundant, and the need for faith extinguished.

Oh look! A babel-fish!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

I suggest that religious belief remains strong and ubiquitous because it performs a number of still-relevant functions.
It addresses deep-seated insecurities...

Insecurities => fear. As I said, religious belief is a mechanism for suppressing fear in exactly the same way as depression and schizophrenia are the results of protective mechanisms. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

it stimulates emotions which some people find highly pleasurable;

So does heroin. Allegedly. Just because something makes you feel good about yourself does not mean that it is a good thing. Do you think that (say) islamic suicide bombers - promised virgins in paradise as motivation for their repellant deeds - are sane?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

it seems to explain unsettling imponderables like How did it all begin? What are we here for? and What happens when we die? It supplies an exciting, mysterious, highly-attractive dimension to otherwise prosaic, cause-and-affect ruled lives; it gives the individual the rewarding sense of being special to an almighty, supernatural entity,

"seems" indeed. But the answers are lies. And the ramifications of believing these lies are far-reaching.

muTron the homeless · 02-24-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer Mike

I would recommend "The Mind of the Bible Believer" by Edmond Cohen. Dr. Cohen is a former university professor and holds his PhD in psychology from Case Western Reserve University in Clevaland.. He is probably the worlds leading authority on the subject and spent most of his career researching and treating patients who were former fundy's. The core psychological pathology is that of dissociation. Other factors come into play as well. Check it out :thumbs:

Sounds interesting. I'll give it a read (or at least put it on my library sized list of things to read in the near future). I guess the uneasiness I feel in the assertion stems from books theists have reccomended to me from the other end of the stick suggesting atheists are mentally ill as well.

Perhaps I spoke a little hastily when I said I don't buy it totally. I am open to the evidence....however,

Just off the top of my head: I tend to agree fundamentalism is possibly a mental illness. I am not ready to throw all the other theists under the bus along with them...

Stephen T-B · 02-24-2005, 11:04 AM

I've heard of a study - but not seen it - which purported to show that religion stimulates the same area of the brain as do narcotics.
Seeing people enjoying religious ecstacy made me think there might be some truth in it. Also, I have observed that the "high" some people get froim religion seems to diminish, which means they require ever-stronger doses.

I suppose what it comes down to (in terms of the OP) is how "mental illness" is defined. And to do that, you need to define what's "mental wellness"- and I think if you could do that, you'd conclude there's not a 100 per cent mentally-well person alive. Nor has there ever been one.
We accept a certain amount of abnormality as the norm because it is the norm. Only abnormalities which don't fall within the range of what we accept as "normal" are characterised as "illness."
For a religious person, it is "normal" to be religious - and abnormal not to be.
What I'm saying (I think) is that we are into subjective judgments here. And subjective judgments tend to be worth rather little.

Jagella · 02-24-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

I have to say, I didn't much care for the "Religion as mental illness" bit…

Unfortunately, nobody has said much yet about the similarities I explained between religious behavior and mental illness, although many people say they disagree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

…the believer constantly looks for evidence to prove the reality of the god he/she believes in, but if ever if it were unambiguously supplied, belief would be made redundant, and the need for faith extinguished.

That’s the whole idea of faith: It’s a motive to believe when evidence is lacking. If one has good reason and evidence to believe, then faith is not of any use. So you might describe faith as a “necessary evil.�? To want faith is like wanting a crutch. Crutches and faith are only good if there is no better alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

As I see it, the function of religious leaders is to fix the god of their belief by precise definition…

A precise definition for “God�?? I’ve yet to see any good definitions for any god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen T-B

By acting as a conduit between the people and their gods, the priestly caste exerts an influence which has, from time to time, inflicted immeasurable misery upon very large numbers of people.

I’ve noticed this behavior in many religionists. They go on about what God wants or what God is without a shred of evidence to demonstrate that what they say is true. I believe this kind of talk demonstrates that the “God�? the believer is referring to is the believer himself!

Jagella

muTron the homeless · 02-24-2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

Therefore it (religion)is intrinsically bad to some degree because the actions of its believers are what make it good or bad.

I added the bold above.

Just a quip here: Disagree. How does it follow that the actions of the believer can be good OR bad yet religion itself is bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oxymoron

So there are degrees, but it's not clear-cut. How it manifests, cultural and individual elements dictate the severity. A story on the news this morning in which African immigrants in the UK were beating their children to exorcise demons horrified me. These people are quite obviously badly-adjusted, yet their beliefs are held at least as earnestly as a xian churghgoer. And within their own community they are as sane as the next (wo)man

So, if I am following your line of thinking....there may be a proportional relation between the religious belief in question (and dependant on how rational that belief is ) and the corresponding degree of mental illness that can be said to ensue? Yes?

Oxymoron · 02-24-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muTron the homeless

Just a quip here: Disagree. How does it follow that the actions of the believer can be good OR bad yet religion itself is bad.

I am actually arguing against the notion that it is intrinsically good, not that it is universally bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muTron the homeless

So, if I am following your line of thinking....there may be a proportional relation between the religious belief in question (and dependant on how rational that belief is ) and the corresponding degree of mental illness that can be said to ensue? Yes?

Not necessarily. It depends on those complex factors I mentioned. I don't know how fucked up you need to be to beat your kids, but it doesn't appear to be that much more fucked up than just belief in the sky daddy as your personal saviour.

Rational BAC · 02-24-2005, 10:10 PM

Oh come on guys---

You don't expect to be taken seriously if you overstate. Do you?

And most of this thread is serious overstatement.

Religion is NOT a mental illness. The worst you could say is that it is a slightly benevolent neurosis for the VAST majority of people who partake in it.

And it has a VERY long history among ALL cultures on this planet.

If religiousity is a mental illness, then that means that we as a species are by nature mentally ill. And, by definition, that makes no sense at all.

We are all prone to our little quirks. And atheists are far from immune in that regard.

Cut us theists some slack on the silly stuff.

Thor Q. Mada · 02-25-2005, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rational BAC

Oh come on guys---

You don't expect to be taken seriously if you overstate. Do you?

And most of this thread is serious overstatement.

Religion is NOT a mental illness. The worst you could say is that it is a slightly benevolent neurosis for the VAST majority of people who partake in it.

And it has a VERY long history among ALL cultures on this planet.

If religiousity is a mental illness, then that means that we as a species are by nature mentally ill. And, by definition, that makes no sense at all.

We are all prone to our little quirks. And atheists are far from immune in that regard.

Cut us theists some slack on the silly stuff.

You are correct, and the difference between belivers and atheists is not that big.
To quote Michael Shermer more or less:
Since the recorded history of mankind there have been about 400000 religions and roughly 2500 gods.
I am sceptical about the 2500 gods.
The xians are sceptical about 2499 gods.
Insignificant difference really.
Unquote

Killer Mike · 02-25-2005, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muTron the homeless

Sounds interesting. I'll give it a read (or at least put it on my library sized list of things to read in the near future). I guess the uneasiness I feel in the assertion stems from books theists have reccomended to me from the other end of the stick suggesting atheists are mentally ill as well.

Perhaps I spoke a little hastily when I said I don't buy it totally. I am open to the evidence....however,

Just off the top of my head: I tend to agree fundamentalism is possibly a mental illness. I am not ready to throw all the other theists under the bus along with them...

The key is whether their claims are supported by valid research. Most books purported to argue atheists have some kind of father figure syndrome are usually by Christian authors whos degrees in psychology/counseling are from Christian institutions. There is simply no valid scientific research or reliable evidence to support their claims. Its like books that claim gay people can be converted to heterosexuality by counseling. Here is another book you might consider: "The Psychology of Religion" by David Wulff. It is a college level textbook used in many universities. David Wulff is a professor at Brown University, in Providence RI. Also as I mentioned in another post Oxford University Press recently published a book "Religion and Mental Health". It contains several articles by different college professors who specialize in the psychology of religion. Anyway, I encourage you to do some more indepth research on your own.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-24-2005, 11:04 AM	#104
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	I've heard of a study - but not seen it - which purported to show that religion stimulates the same area of the brain as do narcotics. Seeing people enjoying religious ecstacy made me think there might be some truth in it. Also, I have observed that the "high" some people get froim religion seems to diminish, which means they require ever-stronger doses. I suppose what it comes down to (in terms of the OP) is how "mental illness" is defined. And to do that, you need to define what's "mental wellness"- and I think if you could do that, you'd conclude there's not a 100 per cent mentally-well person alive. Nor has there ever been one. We accept a certain amount of abnormality as the norm because it is the norm. Only abnormalities which don't fall within the range of what we accept as "normal" are characterised as "illness." For a religious person, it is "normal" to be religious - and abnormal not to be. What I'm saying (I think) is that we are into subjective judgments here. And subjective judgments tend to be worth rather little.

02-24-2005, 10:10 PM	#108
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Oh come on guys--- You don't expect to be taken seriously if you overstate. Do you? And most of this thread is serious overstatement. Religion is NOT a mental illness. The worst you could say is that it is a slightly benevolent neurosis for the VAST majority of people who partake in it. And it has a VERY long history among ALL cultures on this planet. If religiousity is a mental illness, then that means that we as a species are by nature mentally ill. And, by definition, that makes no sense at all. We are all prone to our little quirks. And atheists are far from immune in that regard. Cut us theists some slack on the silly stuff.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.