Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Spenser · 11-05-2003, 05:17 PM

I am curious as to what people here (I'm usually in EoG) think of this work?

Quote:

A Small Tid-Bit for Intrigue

...let us now turn our attention to another character in another work of fiction: Jesus of Nazareth, the major character of the gospels of Luke, Matthew, and John, although is is completely unknown to the writers of the epistles supposed to have been written by St. Paul. (None of the saintly forgers called Paul ever refer to "Jesus of Nazareth.") As the Wizard should have been of Oz, so Jesus should have been of Nazareth. But where was Nazareth in the first century C.E.? More fundamentally, was Nazareth in the first century?

Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament, nor do any ancient historians or geographers mention it before the beginning of the fourth century...

Biff the unclean · 11-05-2003, 05:53 PM

The town we call Nazareth today comes from a trip to the holy land by the 85 year old Augusta Helena (Constantine's mommy). When she got there there was nothing to be seen but an angel came and told her where to find the true cross, the holy nails, the plaque from the cross, our savior's seamless cloak the Robe-of CinemaScope fame. And Nazareth and Mt Sinai and Golgatha and the tomb.
Lucky for her hosts that that angel showed up in just the nick of time. It's not wise to disappoint the Emperor of the World's mom.

She became the patron saint of archaeologists.

Doctor X · 11-05-2003, 06:08 PM

Er . . . I thought that it came from the "he will be a Nazarene"--Nazõraios--Ναζραιοs prophecy which basically states that he will be a particular ascetic, being misunderstood.

Ah, you have to love the internet:

Quote:

Matthew 2:23

. . . and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

Mark 14:67:

When she saw Peter warming himself, she looked closely at him. "You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus," she said.

Mark 16:6

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has rise
n! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.

Bible Gateway Search

Searching for Mt's "source" of this prophecy, here is an interesting commentary:

Quote:

By God's Plan, They Settle in an Obscure Place (2:23) Jewish leaders who opposed Matthew's community undoubtedly reviled Jesus by wondering how a great Messiah could come from politically insignificant Nazareth (compare Jn 1:46). Nazareth was, like many Galilean towns, "a tiny agricultural village." Earlier estimates suggested that it contained as many as sixteen hundred to two thousand inhabitants (Meyers and Strange 1981:27, 56), but more recent estimates have suggested five hundred (Stanton 1993:112). It was the sort of community where everyone would know everyone else's business, but it was a religiously orthodox town (see Meyers and Strange 1981:27; Finegan 1969:29). Though Nazareth existed in the shadow of the large, Hellenized Jewish city of Sepphoris, Galilean villages and towns were not very dependent economically on the two Hellenized cities (Goodman 1983:27, 60).

Bible Gateway Commentary

Thus, frankly, it appears the commentator quoted in the opening post is wrong. At the very least, the Synoptic writers Mk and Mt thought the city existed and mentioned it before the 4th Century!! Given the tone of the comment, it appears the writers has a bias which does not help scholarship. He "wants" it to be all "fiction" so it drives him to a bit of eisegesis himself!

Anyways, looking for "Nazarene" I find only "Nazarite:" Numbers has rules about these ascetics. Two examples:

Quote:

Numbers 6:2

"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite,

Numbers 6:4

As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins.

Bible Gateway Search

what one does not find is the actual prophecy quoted by Mt. There are "parallels" which require stretching the passages and taking them out of context.

Previewing this, I see Biff the Unclean's comment. I do not know if the "current" identification of Nazareth comes from such "creation"--like "hey, let's call this hole Joseph's tomb and that hill Golgotha!"--or if better archeaology is behind it. If the former, the point remains that Mt, Lk, Mk, and Jn felt the damn thing existed and readers would not object. Sure . . . their intended audiences may never have been to Palestine--an assumption--but I would still think the tradition existed.

Toto · 11-05-2003, 06:45 PM

That particular article has been mentioned before, and debated.

Trying to find old threads (so as not to reinvent the wheel)

Nazareth or Nazorite

The Hometown of Jesus

Was there or wasn`t there a Nazareth?

Was there a Nazareth in Jesus' Time?

Spenser · 11-06-2003, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
That particular article has been mentioned before, and debated.

Trying to find old threads (so as not to reinvent the wheel)

Nazareth or Nazorite

The Hometown of Jesus

Was there or wasn`t there a Nazareth?

Was there a Nazareth in Jesus' Time?

Thanks. It was a slightly difficult read with the old formatting and all. I am curious as to the consensus here as whether or not they feel the place ever existed. Perhaps I should start a poll?

Toto · 11-06-2003, 11:11 AM

I don't see the point of a poll. The Christians will vote that Nazareth existed and Jesus was from there. I doubt if anyone else has any really strong opinions on the subject. It seems to me that Jesus was probably described as from Nazareth to cover up a previous description of him as a Nazorean or Nazorite.

I was also somewhat impressed with the article that tries to match the description of Nazareth in the gospels with the actual geography, and decides that the town in question is actually Gamla. But no one else has commented on that or what it might mean.

nermal · 11-06-2003, 05:41 PM

A further legitimate question is, of course, why did Jesus need come from Nazareth? It's my understanding that this fulfills some OT prophesy, or at least, is claimed to. I can find no prophecy about the Savior being a Nazarene. Maybe I don't look so good.

Ed

Madkins007 · 11-06-2003, 09:35 PM

Why would the early texts make up a town (assuming there is a historical basis to Jesus and the whole thing is not a myth)?

I mean- the storytelling would have started immediately and surely Mary and others who knew about him as a child would have known the right town.

On the other hand, if Nazareth WAS just a bump on the road, or even a rather short-lived community why is it so surprising that it was not noted. After all, isn't there a rather proud tradition of calling towns fictional and then finding that they were real?

Biff the unclean · 11-06-2003, 10:37 PM

Why would the early texts make up a town (assuming there is a historical basis to Jesus and the whole thing is not a myth)?
You can't assume that. The town was made up apparently by somebody who was writing a book about Jews who didn't know that much about them

I mean- the storytelling would have started immediately and surely Mary and others who knew about him as a child would have known the right town.
The problem with the Virgin Mother Mary is that she was a Galatian Goddess (in western Europe she was called Bridgit or Brig) who had popular temples from Galatia to Egypt. A major temple to her was found in Tarsus that dates to 50 BCE

On the other hand, if Nazareth WAS just a bump on the road, or even a rather short-lived community why is it so surprising that it was not noted.
Because God All Mighty was from there.

After all, isn't there a rather proud tradition of calling towns fictional and then finding that they were real?
You've got the tradition backwards. Nazareth was called fact--most people are lead to believe that present day Nazareth is the real place-- but there isn't a trace of it. I imagine we'll find it somewhere near Smallville.

Toto · 11-06-2003, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Madkins007
. . . . After all, isn't there a rather proud tradition of calling towns fictional and then finding that they were real?

It might have happened with Troy, but I can't think of another town that was assumed to be fictional and later discovered to be real. What is your basis for this?

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11-05-2003, 05:53 PM	#2
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	The town we call Nazareth today comes from a trip to the holy land by the 85 year old Augusta Helena (Constantine's mommy). When she got there there was nothing to be seen but an angel came and told her where to find the true cross, the holy nails, the plaque from the cross, our savior's seamless cloak the Robe-of CinemaScope fame. And Nazareth and Mt Sinai and Golgatha and the tomb. Lucky for her hosts that that angel showed up in just the nick of time. It's not wise to disappoint the Emperor of the World's mom. She became the patron saint of archaeologists.

11-05-2003, 06:45 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	That particular article has been mentioned before, and debated. Trying to find old threads (so as not to reinvent the wheel) Nazareth or Nazorite The Hometown of Jesus Was there or wasn`t there a Nazareth? Was there a Nazareth in Jesus' Time?

11-06-2003, 11:11 AM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I don't see the point of a poll. The Christians will vote that Nazareth existed and Jesus was from there. I doubt if anyone else has any really strong opinions on the subject. It seems to me that Jesus was probably described as from Nazareth to cover up a previous description of him as a Nazorean or Nazorite. I was also somewhat impressed with the article that tries to match the description of Nazareth in the gospels with the actual geography, and decides that the town in question is actually Gamla. But no one else has commented on that or what it might mean.

11-06-2003, 05:41 PM	#7
nermal Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,969	A further legitimate question is, of course, why did Jesus need come from Nazareth? It's my understanding that this fulfills some OT prophesy, or at least, is claimed to. I can find no prophecy about the Savior being a Nazarene. Maybe I don't look so good. Ed

11-06-2003, 09:35 PM	#8
Madkins007 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 591	Why would the early texts make up a town (assuming there is a historical basis to Jesus and the whole thing is not a myth)? I mean- the storytelling would have started immediately and surely Mary and others who knew about him as a child would have known the right town. On the other hand, if Nazareth WAS just a bump on the road, or even a rather short-lived community why is it so surprising that it was not noted. After all, isn't there a rather proud tradition of calling towns fictional and then finding that they were real?

11-06-2003, 10:37 PM	#9
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Why would the early texts make up a town (assuming there is a historical basis to Jesus and the whole thing is not a myth)? You can't assume that. The town was made up apparently by somebody who was writing a book about Jews who didn't know that much about them I mean- the storytelling would have started immediately and surely Mary and others who knew about him as a child would have known the right town. The problem with the Virgin Mother Mary is that she was a Galatian Goddess (in western Europe she was called Bridgit or Brig) who had popular temples from Galatia to Egypt. A major temple to her was found in Tarsus that dates to 50 BCE On the other hand, if Nazareth WAS just a bump on the road, or even a rather short-lived community why is it so surprising that it was not noted. Because God All Mighty was from there. After all, isn't there a rather proud tradition of calling towns fictional and then finding that they were real? You've got the tradition backwards. Nazareth was called fact--most people are lead to believe that present day Nazareth is the real place-- but there isn't a trace of it. I imagine we'll find it somewhere near Smallville.

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