Freethought & Rationalism Archive

premjan · 10-13-2006, 07:42 AM

OK well you may be right. Alexander is certainly remembered in India (Sikandar) and there was a Greek school of sculpture in Gandhara for some time. For that matter the Pathans (who are from that area) also tend to go in for homosexuality.

Tammuz · 10-13-2006, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The reason is that #1 the earliest sources of information that we have on Muhammad have very, VERY few details. The later stories about Muhammad have no explanation of where their material came from, it has always been explained away as "oral tradition" or "divinely inspired". Both of these smak of "made it up".

The earliest "surviving" biography of Muhammed is Sirat Rasul'Allah by ibn Ishaq, which is from about 120-130 A.H (After Hijra, which was (according to the official story) in 622 C.E).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

#2 The few non-Muslim accounts that seem to correspond to a vague notion of someone that could be called Muhammad completely contradict the main points of the Muslim accounts, i.e. that Muhammad led a large army, they he defeated people in battle, etc., and the dates of his life. There are no other records that support any Muhammad as described by Islam, YET we do have fairly good records of the goings on in the region, because the whole story is that Muhammad was fighting the Byzantine Empire, and we have records from the Byzantine Empire of this time, they say nothing about this.

Muhammed mainly fought against the Meccans and various Arabic tribes. Of course, nobody outside Arabia cared about that, as little as they cared about when he was born or the Hijra. I think the raid at Tabuk (which was under Byzantine rule) was recorded by Byzantine historians, though I'm not sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

#3 The stories of Muhammad are clearly patterned on other Jewish and regional tribal myths. Islam is a blending of various "heretical" Christian sects who were more Jewish in nature than the Catholics, Jewish tradition, and the local pagan traditions. We can clearly identify parts of these mythologies in the story of Muhammad.

We can clearly see that Muhammed has been legendarized. Compare the Quran, in which Muhammed tries to explain away why he doesn't preform any miracles, with the Hadiths, in which Muhammed preform many miracles.

That the Quran borrows heavily from Jewish and heretical Christian sources is no suprise. In Arabia, there lived both Jews and heretical Christians who wanted freedom from the Byzantine Orthodox oppression. An excellent source. It also obvious that the author of the Quran got the inforation orally, as there are "errors" in the stories as retold by the Quran compared to the Biblical ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by premjan

I'm not sure it is definite that Dhul-Kifl was Alexander - it could have been one of his predecessor 'Greats' (e.g. Cyrus) or successors (e.g. Darius).

It is Dhul-Qarneyn that is proposed to be Alexander the Great. Other proposed persons for Dhul-Qarneyn is Curys and some ancient Yemeni king.

For more about the historicity of Muhammed, see Patricia Crone's What do we actually know about Mohammed?.

premjan · 10-13-2006, 10:10 AM

Dhul-Qurnain sorry.

gstafleu · 10-13-2006, 10:57 AM

Now that the forum has been renamed (ASC&H?) perhaps we should celebrate with an appropriate thread. What are the ideas about a Historical Mohammed (HM) versus a Mythical Mohammed (MM)? I remember an article by Robert Price (sorry, I lost the reference) that suggests an MM.

Has this been looked into as extensively as HJ/MJ or is it, ahem, virgin territory?

What do others think?

Gerard Stafleu

Malachi151 · 10-13-2006, 10:58 AM

Can this thread be merged with this thread:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=182689

gstafleu · 10-13-2006, 11:12 AM

Thanks for pointing out that thread. But it brings up the sticky question if that thread now should be moved to ASC&H? Given the new name, a case could be made that it "belongs" here. But then again it seems nicely at home in GRD as well...

Gerard Stafleu

gstafleu · 10-13-2006, 11:25 AM

So, if I understand Malachi151's first posting in this thread (nice work BTW, it actually argues something rather than just opining

), we have:

1) No evidence for M outside the religious tradition
2) Much less (only 4 instances, did I get that right) mention of M in the Quran than one would reasonably expect (perhaps the Quran "wasn't interested" in M?)
3) The so-called biographies only pop up at least 100 years after his assumed death.

Why does this seem like deja vu all over again?

Gerard Stafleu

Toto · 10-13-2006, 11:51 AM

There are excepts from Robert Price's article "Of Myth and Men" here

eta: the article is here: Of Myth and Men

gurugeorge · 10-13-2006, 11:53 AM

Here's an interesting list of early references to Islam.

One wonders, for example, what "[they] utter wicked blasphemies against God" meant.

Doug Shaver · 10-13-2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord of the Fries

Is there good evidence for the historicity of muhammed?

I did some googling on that question a few years ago. His existence seems to be about as well (or as poorly) documented as that of most of the pre-Socratic Greek philosphers. We apparently have nothing in writing either by the man himself or by anyone who could have known him. (If I understand correctly, it is not an article of the Islamic faith that Muhammed himself actually wrote the Quran.)

On the other hand, unlike the case with Jesus, there are no facts that are hard to reconcile with a historical Muhammed.

10-13-2006, 10:57 AM	#44
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Historical Mohammed? Now that the forum has been renamed (ASC&H?) perhaps we should celebrate with an appropriate thread. What are the ideas about a Historical Mohammed (HM) versus a Mythical Mohammed (MM)? I remember an article by Robert Price (sorry, I lost the reference) that suggests an MM. Has this been looked into as extensively as HJ/MJ or is it, ahem, virgin territory? What do others think? Gerard Stafleu

10-13-2006, 11:25 AM	#47
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Deja vu all over again So, if I understand Malachi151's first posting in this thread (nice work BTW, it actually argues something rather than just opining ), we have: 1) No evidence for M outside the religious tradition 2) Much less (only 4 instances, did I get that right) mention of M in the Quran than one would reasonably expect (perhaps the Quran "wasn't interested" in M?) 3) The so-called biographies only pop up at least 100 years after his assumed death. Why does this seem like deja vu all over again? Gerard Stafleu

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10-13-2006, 07:42 AM	#41
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	OK well you may be right. Alexander is certainly remembered in India (Sikandar) and there was a Greek school of sculpture in Gandhara for some time. For that matter the Pathans (who are from that area) also tend to go in for homosexuality.

10-13-2006, 10:10 AM	#43
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	Dhul-Qurnain sorry.

10-13-2006, 10:58 AM	#45
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	Can this thread be merged with this thread: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=182689

10-13-2006, 11:12 AM	#46
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Thanks for pointing out that thread. But it brings up the sticky question if that thread now should be moved to ASC&H? Given the new name, a case could be made that it "belongs" here. But then again it seems nicely at home in GRD as well... Gerard Stafleu

10-13-2006, 11:51 AM	#48
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are excepts from Robert Price's article "Of Myth and Men" here eta: the article is here: Of Myth and Men

10-13-2006, 11:53 AM	#49
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	Here's an interesting list of early references to Islam. One wonders, for example, what "[they] utter wicked blasphemies against God" meant.

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