PaperCut

Kassiana (That's a beautiful [screen] name), do you think you can freely convert to any other religion? For example, if you are a Christian, do you think there is any way that Muslims can convince you to convert to Islam and reject principal tenets of Christian doctrine?

Or is it the case that your are 100% convinced of the truth of your faith and that you can't even consider converting to another religion? If the answer is yes, then the question is how did you become so convinced? Most people simply inherit their parents religious beliefs and what they are told as children hardwires certain biases in them which make it very difficult, if not impossible, for them to freely choose their religion.

This is one example that in my opinion demonstrates limitations of free will.

In summary, it would be very unfortunate for many people if Islam is the one true religion, or if atheist have found the truth, because for them, they way they have been raised and because of the biases that have been instilled in them, they simply have no chance to choose these worldviews.


P.


P.S. Well, I guess if athiests have the truth, then nobody really ganna loose much.

Biff the unclean

That's true the bias that was instilled in me as a youth has forced me to abandon Christianity and become an Atheist. It does shape my world view.

That bias is called "honesty."

As it turns out the truth actually will set you free. It will set you free from religion.

PaperCut

I hear you man.

I also never made any conscious choice not to have faith. Over time, what I saw, experienced, and came to know, along with what I consider logic and reason, made it impossible for me to have faith.

P.

Stumpjumper

Hey Biff

As you know I favor free will and will provide this passage:

"God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. He added his commandments and precepts. If thou wilt observe the commandments, and keep acceptable fidelity forever, they shall preserve thee. He hath set water and fire before thee; stretch forth thine hand for which thou wilt. Before man is life and death, good and evil; that which he shall choose shall be given him." (Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Sirach, ch. 15:14-17)

But I also agree that if man can not choose what he experiences after this life he does not truly have free will. This is a problem for many Christian denominations because they follow predestination and that subverts free will in some way.

fellow

I think the term free will is not understood. Here is my inerpretation:

Will is simply another word for desire. People think that true free will should not result in any negative or non desired consequences. Remember that the term is not "free destiny" which would imply that we get to choose what actually hapens to us. We don't always get those choices but we can always feel free to want what we want because we have no choice. How can we choose to not want what we want? the term free will is as meaningless and redundant as saying free existance. Do you believe in free existance? How can you not? Lets describe free will. does it mean no cost associated with it?

You may be condemmed for thinking something if you actually let it be known. You make decisions regardless of any interferance. The will is the desire but may not be the choice you make.

Free will: I may want to jump off a cliff but I may not actually do it or be able or allowed to do it. I can still will it. and I'm free to do so

Free choice: I can choose to fly but may not be able to. I may fall. The choice was still free

Free destiny: I do not have free destiny because It often happens that I am not successful in determining my destiny.

However, I am not able to not be successful in willing something other than what I will. I can make a choice to will something but it doesn';t always work. However, the process of making the choice itself is sucessful 100% of the time.

If I will something, I'm able to sucessfully will it 100% of time without exception.

One might ask, what if I'm tricked into willing something? is that free will? Of course it is. our will is always based on influence of some sort. If you end up willing something, it is not against your will.

I ramble and end up confusing myself but that's what hapens when free will is discussed. How can you not have free will. In fact, the word free is useless. It's just will and that's all you need.

Biff the unclean

Hi singletrack1, God does not exist, He’s a fictional character. Just like every other fictional character who has ever been created He cannot take any action in the real world. In His fictional, literary world, He has super powers and is the soul of dramatic action.

There are those who make their livings selling this character and pretending that It is real. The problem is that reality should reflect such a super being with such super powers and it does not. “Free will�? is the name of the scam these con artists came up with to explain why such a dynamic super being does absolutely nothing. It implies that God could mess with your will but, since He’s so cool, He chooses not to. “You see this something not happening here? Well that’s God not doing it because He respects you.�?

This is where a bias for honesty comes in. God behaves exactly like a God who does not exist because He does not exist. Your will is free because there are no supernatural supermen to mess with it.

Kassiana

--Um, how does this have anything to do with my argument, which is that we only have limited free will to begin with? If anything, I believe it strengthens my position.

Of course I can't. I'm a Pagan ex-fundamentalist Christian. I have no doubt that I can't freely convert to any fundamental religion, nor could I ever become any species of Christian again. So what? I'm not arguing that we have unlimited free will.

--Subjective personal experiences with the Gods.

--Not I. My parents raised me in a secular household. I turned fundy at age 13 and deconverted/reconverted at age 26 to Paganism.

--Why? Do you think the Gods are petty terrorists, out to get us if we call them the wrong names? I don't. Do you think a life is wasted that is spent in love of the Gods and this planet if there's no afterlife? I don't.

DBT

But then, predestination is well supported by scripture;

"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" (1 Pet.1:20).

"Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite." (psalm147-5)

PaperCut

I think you've misunderstood my post. To begin with, the question I posed in the OP was:

Is free will overrated? And if so, does that undermine the plausibility of religions, whose worldviews include deities that judge human beings based on they choose to do?

I believe that free will is overrated, i.e. our will is not free enough to justify us being judged by some kind of god. If you believe in limited free will, then we pretty much are in agreement.

And I'm not arguing that we have NO free will.

Neither do I, but that's the official position of many religions, i.e. it's their way or the highway, and it's only these religions, with which I have a problem. I think you missed what I was trying to say.


P.

trendkill

For once I agree with Biff. "Free will" is just a buzzword. There is no real concept behind it, just a mass of misdirection and confusion that is used to justify evil (i.e. suffering, punishment, etc.).

If you want to know why there is no such thing as free will, as mentioned, there are many threads in the Philosophy forum on the subject. Also, you might try Googling "free will" or "libertarian free will". Note the inability of free will proponents to give a definition of free will that makes sense.