Jesus W. Vader

http://www.biblicalexaminer.org/salvation.shtml

Stumbled upon this a while back: It is perhaps the most sophisticated "they were never really saved to begin with" fundy apologetic ever written, and it comes from a dumbfuck indy fundy baptist pastor in Southern Indiana of all places. Very interesting. Of course, the question it prompts is "so, God can't just make sure his spokespeople get the plan right in the first place?".:huh:

This guy's thesis is that a lot of the popular evangelical stuff about "giving your life to Christ" or "ask Jesus into your heart" actually misses the point of the substitutionary atonement. I guess it's better than "they were'nt sincere" or not sorry enough for their sins. So, people caught up in a half-assed plan of salvation are more likely to be apostates, I guess. Another interesting thing about this screed is that it is aimed at people who have lifelong investment in the other 99 percent of the Christian memeplex and therefore end up experiencing another round of terror over going to hell and such.:banghead:

Alethias

I read that article. Kinda made me want to scratch my eyes out; I had to school myself to patience while reading it, but I did since I wanted to understand his point.

My summary of his message:

1. First you have to believe that you are a sinner.

   I fail here at the beginning. I don't view myself as a sinner.

2. Next, you have to view Jesus' death on the cross as a sufficient substitutionary sacrifice to meet the just penalty for your sinfulness.

   I fail here as well. Even besides the false assumption of sin, I don't know of any reason to believe that a few hours of suffering on a cross followed by death and resurrection(assuming they even happened) are sufficient as a replacement for eternity in hell. Nor do I have any reason to assume that eternity in hell would be a just penalty for what I don't even consider sin.
   

3. Next, you have to trust in that substitutionary atonement and make a verbal statement of such trust in order to be saved.

   I don't accept the efficacy of such a trust. There is no explanation of why such a trust would have the effect that the author assumes. Nor is any reason given why someone has to state it verbally in the presence of a witness in order to be valid. I presume this is so that someone outside of yourself can judge you as saved. Why is that part of the equation??
   

.
My conclusion: It is better in its presentation and more convincing on the surface than most gospel messages(I'm not surprised that it beguiles even longtime experienced christians), but it fails to deliver at every step of the way upon detailed analysis.

Regards,
Alethias.

Jesus W. Vader

I agree on both counts. But I can see how it might give pause to a recent ex-christian still worried about going to hell, or a christian struggling with some "maybe you aren't really saved" sort of "sin", due to its relative sophistication and (sort of) intellectual rigor. "Was I ever really saved the right way. The guy indicates that this is exactly what often happens when he presents it, even to the most perfectly upstanding and spit-shined members of various flocks.

Jesus W. Vader

It kept telling me the post didn't take.

Alethias

Ya, there appeared to be a glitch in the system. For future reference, if it appears not to take, don't re-click the button. wait a while(like an hour or so) before you re-submit.

Joe Bloe

You never really posted in the first place.

Joe Bloe

In addition, you have the problem of how proper justice could allow an innocent person to be punished and the guilty one to go free.

Clivedurdle

My pentecostal upbringing centred on this stuff! I know it backwards!

Na, doesn't work as an argument!

Lanakila

There is a book by Ron Comfort called: Hell's best kept secret, that has the same premise. This is nothing new and is in fact what Independent Baptists believe. (I used to be one so I know)

Jesus W. Vader

Oh, yeah, I've heard of R.C. and his book. Similar to the above schpiel. Another sophisticated spin on "no true scotsman". These guys can be clever. Comfort admits his purpose is to circumvent the intellect and zap the guilt and fear buttons(when effective, they claim it is conviction from the Holy Spirit). Reminds me of Orwell's crimestop. Like the above, also often meant for people with a lifelong investment in Christian activities. Seems kind of abusive to me.