mountainman

Does the use of "gentile" in the (greek) Didache follows the use of the "ethnos" root - or something else. I have spent time browsing a Greek Didache page (the reference is in the first chapter) without any success in finding the root greek word which is translated as "gentile" by Roberts-Donaldson and Lightfoot. Can anyone point out the word on that page? Ben's pages on the didache do not appear to cover the first chapter, rather the 16th. I think I may have found it here as ... eqnh but I cannot be certain. (It could be a font thing)

mountainman

The Hellenistic ideas held by the Roman emperors and rulers of nations in the first century CE and way beyond at least up until the period of the second sophistic contributed towards a form of nationalism which might be described as "Graeco-Roman" or "Hellenistic-Roman" or in other ways.

During this period we have the "christian authors" writing a new testament canon in which the christians are described as being successful in the conversion of people from "the nation of Jews" and "the nation of gentiles" (or Hellenes in some cases explicitly) to what we are to presume is the "nationhood of christianity".

We have all seen the Stark statistics.
We have a figure for "the nation of christians" rising upwards.
We dont have a similar figure for "the nation of Jews".
The complimentary empire totals represent "the nation of gentiles/hellenes".
The christian demographic rise is asserted in the absence of any evidence.


While this is asserted to be the case by Stark and others prior to the fourth century, in the fourth century Hellenes may have become christians after being tortured. We have no "good conversions" to christianity happening except perhaps with some of the aristocrasy having "dreams" c.324/325 CE about the benefits (or otherwise) in becoming "christian". Very political scene, and vastly different from the pre-nicene. The fourth century christian regime had no respect for the greek temples or the pagan culture. What the situation was like in the prenicene is anybody's guess. What evidence do you have for this thing "christian respect for greek culture" ? When and who? Forget Paul.


The Christians were new on the block. They used the Jews to define themselves (in the greek language) to the Hellenes (gentiles) and to define what they were not. They were neither jews nor gentiles, but a brand new nation distinguished in its exclusive canon which set the christians as proselytes to the nations. The NT is a political manifesto of "the christians" against "the world" in many gospels, letters and acts. The world of the Roman empire in the first three and a bit centuries was not Jewish, it was Hellenistic. The authors of the new testament downplay the Hellenistic dominance, by continually referred to the Hellenes as "gentiles" (and idolators and other perjoritive things).

Best wishes,


Pete

gentleexit

Well more than just "ideas". The second sophistic or Philo's Judaism were cohesive identities. "Nationalist" is probably best left to the 19th century but they were the nearest thing to it until then.

Not replace it but Christians wrote "against the Hellenes". Someone like Basil the Great thought much of them. Others dismissed.

Not the Hellenistic Gentiles. Perhaps the Hellenistic Jews but why did it advocate Hellenism more broadly?

mountainman

Ideas politely defined in the 19th century were defined in the 19th century.
Try telling Alexander the Great, and all who followed him that they did not represent a nation of Greeks.
Try telling that to Julius Caesar or Marcus Aurelius or to any of the Roman emperors, for that matter.


Looking backwards at the events of the 4th and 5th centuries, when the last vestiges of the ancient Hellenic civilisation were replaced in the Roman empire with a brand new monotheistic state religion, based on the new testament canon which was introduced very suddenly by Constantine, it can be clearly perceived that the introduction of this new state religion was the catalyst for the fall of the traditional Hellenistic (ie: pagan) nationalism (culture, tradition).

We are told that the new testament canon was designed by authors of earlier centuries, who published the "good news" of a "new god of the world" and who were framed as being the followers of a "new religion". This new religion was not the same as Judaism. Neither was it the same as any of the religions of the great mass of unwashed "gentiles" -- the Hellenistic Religions.

[We must understand the NT was written in the greek language by a keen conquesting Roman mind].

Is it coincidental that the intentions expressed in the NT to "convert the Jews and Gentiles" to this new "non-Jewish and non-Hellenistic" religion actually materialised in a "later century"? When did the new religion get a new name? A novel brand spanking new name of "christians" was used for it (except during the years 360 to 363 CE between which time the "christians" were legally known right throughout the Roman empire as "Galilaeans".)

How lucky was the antisemetic Constantine to find the new testament?

The NT was just the thing he needed to start trashing the idols and destroying the temples of the "gentiles" (of the Hellenistic civilisation). The NT was produced at Nicaea, and people were asked to vote. It was a rush job by a malevolent despot who had already executed priests and destroyed opposition pagan temples. Was the NT legitimate? I dont think so.

Constantine's (antisemetic) Laws from the Theodosian Codex

YEAR Ref. Law .................... ...
313 16.2.1 Christians shall be exempted from serving as tax collectors and other public duties; replacements shall be found for them.
315 16.8.1 "Any Jew who stones a Jewish convert to Christianity shall be burned, and no one is allowed to join Judaism. [Pharr also gives 339, but we give 315 because it is listed by Pharr as in the “fourth consulship” of Constantine.] "
319 16.2.2 "Priests shall be exempted from public service. [Pharr gives 313 and 319, we list it under 319 because it is in the “fifth consulship of Constantine Augustus.”] "
320 16.2.10 "Exemptions from tax payments and menial public services are granted to clergy, as well as their wives, children, and acolytes. [Pharr feels that although the text states this was promulgated by Constantius and Constans in 353, it may have actually been p
321 16.10.1 "If the palace should be struck by lightning, customary consultation of soothsayers may follow."
321 16.2.4 "At death, people shall have the right to leave property to the Church."
321 16.8.3 Jews are allowed to serve on municipal councils.
323 16.2.5 "Clergy shall not be forced into participating in pagan practices; anyone who forces a clergyman into such an act may be fined or publicly beaten, depending on his legal status."
326 16.2.6 There shall be limits on the number of people entering the clergy; people shall not become clerics in order to avoid public service.

326 16.5.1 Religious privileges are reserved for Christians.

326 16.5.2 "Novatians are not considered pre-condemned, and thus may posses their own church buildings and cemeteries. [Novatians disagreed with the Church about absolution.] "
329 16.2.3 Persons entering the clergy in order to avoid public service shall withdraw from the clergy. [Elliott gives 18 July 329. Pharr lists this as a second date.]
330 16.2.7 Church ministers shall not have to serve as decurions. [tax-collectors]
330 16.8.2 Jewish priests shall be exempt from public service.
331 16.8.4 Priests (Jewish priests) and synagogue rulers are exempt from public service.
333 Title 1 "Judicial decisions made by bishops are to be upheld. Enforcement is to be the responsibility of the prefect. If a party to a law suit may request the case to be heard by a bishop rather than a secular judge, the request is to be granted."
336 16.8.5 Jews are not allowed to harass Jewish converts to Christianity.
336 16.9.1 Circumcised slaves are to be freed.
337 Title 4 "Jews may not own circumcised slaves. Also, Jews may not harass Jewish converts to Christianity. [Two posted years are given, 336 and 337. We elected to use the later year because it also gives a date.]"

The NT was a political expediency. Nothing more. It was a clever fabrication commissioned by a very powerful Roman emperor who wanted to have the authority of the Hellenistic civilisation pay him tribute. He tried to pass off Jesus as "the same essence" as the old Hellenic concept of divinity, but they would not have this without a controversy. The greeks said Jesus was not of the same essense as their concept of divinity. Arius and the Arian controversy (another thread)

mountainman

Dear Shesh,

As an indication to how you are assessing this question could you please highlight below some of these 30 odd verses which do not "make sense".

My position is that the authors of the Hebrew texts were not the authors of the new testament. That whatever intentions preserved in words by the authors of the Hebrew texts were not necessarily giben the same weights and balances when they were re-expressed by the authors of the new testament, who were writing in a later political epoch.

The NT authors substituted their own meanings into the terms of the earlier authors, and we not concerned in the least about substituting large slabs of Hellenistic meaning "in which they lived and breathed and had their being", including the substitution of the meaning of the Hellenistic Logos with a new brand of "christian logos".

The NT authors clearly engaged in substitution.
This is all I am "experimenting with" back at them.



Below I have substituted "gentile" with "non-christian". I think that had the authors of the new testament used the term "non-christian" people would ask the unwanted question "What is a christian?". Christianity was thus defined in the NT by the NT authors as a nation by by the nations that it was not. What is the difference between the NT as the basis for the fourth century religion, and the NT as a cleverly disguised political statement for a brand new and strange fourth century political "nation" (neither Jewish nor Hellenistic)

The New and Strange Testament to the "Non-Christians"

Matthew 4:15
"Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Galilee of the non-christians—

Matthew 10:5
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the non-christians or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Matthew 10:18
On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the non-christians.

Matthew 20:19
and will turn him over to the non-christians to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"

Matthew 20:25
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the non-christians lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

Mark 10:33
"We are going up to Jerusalem," he said, "and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the non-christians,

Mark 10:42
Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the non-christians lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

Luke 2:32
a light for revelation to the non-christians and for glory to your people Israel."

Luke 18:32
He will be handed over to the non-christians. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the non-christians until the times of the non-christians are fulfilled.

Luke 22:25
Jesus said to them, "The kings of the non-christians lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.

Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the non-christians and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the non-christians and their kings and before the people of Israel.

Acts 10:28
He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a non-christian or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.

Acts 10:45
The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the non-christians.

Acts 11:1
[ Peter Explains His Actions ] The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the non-christians also had received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the non-christians repentance unto life."

Acts 13:16
Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you non-christians who worship God, listen to me!

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing non-christians, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the non-christians.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the non-christians, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Acts 13:48
When the non-christians heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1
[ In Iconium ] At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and non-christians believed.

Acts 14:2
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the non-christians and poisoned their minds against the brothers.

Acts 14:5
There was a plot afoot among the non-christians and Jews, together with their leaders, to mistreat them and stone them.

Acts 14:27
On arriving there, they gathered the church together and reported all that God had done through them and how he had opened the door of faith to the non-christians.

Acts 15:3
The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the non-christians had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.

Acts 15:5
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The non-christians must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

Acts 15:7
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the non-christians might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

Acts 15:12
The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the non-christians through them.

Acts 15:14
Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the non-christians a people for himself.

Acts 15:17
that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the non-christians who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'

Acts 15:19
"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the non-christians who are turning to God.

Acts 15:22
[ The Council's Letter to non-christian Believers ] Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers.

Acts 15:23
With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the non-christian believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings.

Acts 18:6
But when the Jews opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am clear of my responsibility. From now on I will go to the non-christians."

Acts 21:11
Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, "The Holy Spirit says, 'In this way the Jews of Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the non-christians.' "

Acts 21:19
Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the non-christians through his ministry.

Acts 21:21
They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the non-christians to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.

Acts 21:25
As for the non-christian believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

Acts 22:21
"Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the non-christians.' "

Acts 26:17
I will rescue you from your own people and from the non-christians. I am sending you to them

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the non-christians also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 26:23
that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the non-christians."

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the non-christians, and they will listen!"

Romans 1:5
Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the non-christians to the obedience that comes from faith.

Romans 1:13
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other non-christians.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the non-christian.

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the non-christian;

Romans 2:10
but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the non-christian.

Romans 2:14
(Indeed, when non-christians, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,

Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the non-christians because of you."

Romans 3:9
[ No One is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and non-christians alike are all under sin.

Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of non-christians too? Yes, of non-christians too,

Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the non-christians?

Romans 9:30
[ Israel's Unbelief ] What then shall we say? That the non-christians, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and non-christian—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the non-christians to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the non-christians, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

Romans 11:13
I am talking to you non-christians. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the non-christians, I make much of my ministry

Romans 11:25
[ All Israel Will Be Saved ] I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the non-christians has come in.

Romans 15:9
so that the non-christians may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the non-christians; I will sing hymns to your name."

Romans 15:10
Again, it says, "Rejoice, O non-christians, with his people."

Romans 15:11
And again, "Praise the Lord, all you non-christians, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."

Romans 15:12
And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the non-christians will hope in him."

Romans 15:14
[ Paul the Minister to the non-christians ] I myself am convinced, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, complete in knowledge and competent to instruct one another.

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the non-christians with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the non-christians might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:18
I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the non-christians to obey God by what I have said and done—

Romans 15:27
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the non-christians have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Romans 16:4
They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the non-christians are grateful to them.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to non-christians,

2 Corinthians 11:26
I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from non-christians; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.

Galatians 1:16
to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the non-christians, I did not consult any man,

Galatians 2:2
I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the non-christians. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain.

Galatians 2:7
On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the non-christians, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

Galatians 2:8
For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the non-christians.

Galatians 2:9
James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the non-christians, and they to the Jews.

Galatians 2:12
Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the non-christians. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the non-christians because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Galatians 2:14
When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a non-christian and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force non-christians to follow Jewish customs?

Galatians 2:15
"We who are Jews by birth and not 'non-christian sinners'

Galatians 3:8
The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the non-christians by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the non-christians through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:11
[ One in Christ ] Therefore, remember that formerly you who are non-christians by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)—

Ephesians 3:1
[ Paul the Preacher to the non-christians ] For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you non-christians—

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the non-christians are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:8
Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the non-christians the unsearchable riches of Christ,

Ephesians 4:17
[ Living as Children of Light ] So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the non-christians do, in the futility of their thinking.

Colossians 1:27
To them God has chosen to make known among the non-christians the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 Thessalonians 2:16
in their effort to keep us from speaking to the non-christians so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

1 Timothy 2:7
And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the non-christians.

2 Timothy 4:17
But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the non-christians might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion's mouth.

Revelation 11:2
But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the non-christians. They will trample on the holy city for 42

After all these centuries does the foundation of the logos remain non-christian?


Best wishes,


Pete

Sheshbazzar

You are "getting away" with your substitution only because you are limiting the substitution of "non-christian(s)" to -only- those verses where the word "ethnos" is translated by the word "gentile".

However, this same word "ethnos" is also translated as "nation" and "nations".

For "non-christian(s)" to be an acceptable substitute, you would also have to be able to use it in each of the verses in the NT where "nation" and "nations" appear, because the same word "ethnos" is what is standing behind the translation.
"Ethnos" simply does not translate as "non-christian", and does not -interpret- as "non-christian".

Go through the NT and try substituting "non-christian(s)" in each place where the words "nation" and "nations" occur, and you should see your problem.

The NT was written in Greek, and the word "ethnos" would be simply understood by any Geek audience as bearing the meaning of "nation" or "people", there would be no recognition or concept of it being an implied "code-word" as you are here suggesting.

Understand Pete, here you are presenting your ideas in a Forum that is (relatively) friendly and open to examining your ideas.
If I could at all conscientiously accept what you are positing, I most certainly would. However, even I, on the friendliest of terms, can see the flaws in your reasoning.
You are very unlikely to persuade anyone here concerning this one, and certainly would make no headway at all in any audience that was innately hostile.
Really Pete, having read hundreds of your posts, I can honestly say that I like you. And I like you enough to say, as a word of friendly advice, that on this one you are spinning your wheels. (of course nothing is a total waste, that you learn something while engaged in the pursuing)

mountainman

Dear Shesh,

Thanks for the criticism on the "experiment" and for the leeway in the kitchen. I am still seeking to understand who the "gentiles" were in the NT. I can understand that in the Hebrew bible the "gentiles" were the "other nations" (other than the Hebrew nation).

However the NT authors not only appropriated the greek text of the LXX as a precursor bundle of the christian bible, but they fabricated a new greek testament. It is this new greek testament which interests me, and what the NGT authors actually implied when they used the term "Hellenistic" and "gentile", and how the use of these terms is intermingled rather arbritrariliy.

New Testament (Greek) for "nation" [1484]

G246 allophylos äl-lo'-fü-los one of another nation
G1074 genea ge-ne-ä' generation, time, age, nation
G1085 genos ge'-nos kind, kindred, offspring, nation, stock, born, diversity, misc.
G1484 ethnos e'-thnos Gentiles, nation, heathen, people


the concept of "nation" in the new greek testament

(nation) occurs 31 times in 28 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(nations) occurs 37 times in 37 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(gentile) occurs 2 times in 2 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(gentiles) occurs 99 times in 91 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(heathen) occurs 7 times in 7 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV

(tribe) occurs 19 times in 11 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(tribes) occurs 7 times in 7 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(kindred) occurs 8 times in 8 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(peoples) occurs 2 times in 2 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV
(people) occurs 233 times in 227 verses in 'The New Testament' of the KJV

Thanks for your comments Shesh.

Is it then a fair comment that the new testament was written in greek to the Hellenistic civilisation with the message that the Hellenes should consider themselves to be "gentiles" to "the new christianity" in the same sense that non-Jewish nations should consider themselves to be "gentiles" to "Hebrews of the old LXX"? The Hellenes, reading the NT, would immediately see that they were "gentiles" to "christianity". Was the NT some form of Roman propaganda against the Hellenistic religious influences which had pervaded the regions since Alexander the Great - and continued to do so until the fourth century? Finally, to what extent if at all do you think the new testament exhibits Roman "finger-prints"?

Best wishes,


Pete

Sheshbazzar

The Hellenes were by birth and nature "gentiles" and of "the nations", becoming Christians did not change the fact of a persons country of origin.
Christianity was composed of both those of the "gentiles" and of the "Jews" that accepted the Christ/Messiah as their "lord and saviour".
The key here is the word or nation "Israel", anyone believing and accepting The Christ/Messiah, became a spiritual "Israelite", a fulfilling of The Promise made to Abraham.
There are two types of "Israel" in the Bible. The earthly political/governmental nation of Israel with its citizens, that often forgot and forsook YHWH their Elohim, and thus became Israel only in name.
And the Israel of faith, in which any person "Jew" or "gentile", might through faith obtain citizenship.(Ro 9:6-8)
Recall that the believers "were first called Christians at Antioch".
Many believing disciples living in other areas might well have lived out their entire lives without so much as ever even hearing of the word "christian", a name that was first applied to them by others, and was not integral with, nor at all necessary to The Faith; When Peter stood up and preached on The Day of Pentecost, and when The Holy Spirit came upon The Apostles, there was not one person present called "Christian".
I believe it was/is Israeli propaganda against Hellenism, and also against Rome, and "Romanism", and against all other "man-made" political institutions.
The ancient Scriptural ideal is for all men to become " children of Abraham" and fellow citizens of the Israel of Faith.
The name "Christian" became a statement of one's political association with, and acceptance of Rome's dominance over matters of religion.
Revelation gives a colorful portrait of the Mother Church, AND her Harlot daughters, one which to me, is true, and applies to all of "Christianity", all of whom have been seduced and suckered in by the Roman religion.
Because they are "Christians", they remain blind to the fact that their own canon both identifies, and condemns them.

mountainman

If we to examine the First Seven Heresies of the Eighty "Against Heresies"
sourced from The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis, in a recent translation,
we find that they are quite remarkable.

In his introductory prelude, in speaking of the "sects" or "heresies" Epiphanius notes:

"For it was about these four sects ("heresies")
that the apostle clearly said in reproof,
"In Christ Jesus there is neither Barbarian, Scythian,
Hellene nor Jew, but a new creation" [5] (Col 3:11)

The First Seven Heresies of Bishop Epiphanius

Heresy 1 of 80 - Against Barbarism
Heresy 2 of 80 - Against Scythianism
Heresy 3 of 80 - Against Hellenism
Heresy 4 of 80 - Against Judaism
Heresy 5 of 80 - Against Stoics
Heresy 6 of 80 - Against Platonists
Heresy 7 of 80 - Against Pythagoreans

The idea that the New Testament was successfully commissioned as a political manifesto by the ingenuous Roman imperialist(s), against the Barbarians, the Scythians, the Hellenes, the Jews, the Stoics, the Platonists, the Pythagoreans, and another seventy three minor groups in the Roman empire (all of whom are referred to as "the gentiles", seems to be borne out by the evidence of the results of the above alone.

Would it not be justified to paraphrase Epiphanius use of Col 3:11 as follows ....

"In the Christian Nation there is neither Barbarian, Scythian, Hellene nor Jew, but a new (political/religious) nation" .

At any rate, after all these discussions about "the gentiles", these list of heresies by Epiphanius just about summarise the situation at the end of the fourth century. At this time the "gentiles" had evolved into "pagans" whose phyla and sub-classifications had been uniquely specified into eighty different species, with the first seven on the official "hit-list" listed above. The new testament seems a political manifesto for a new nation which was not Hellenistic, not Platonic, not Pythagorean, not Jewish, etc, etc ...

"CUT-AND-PASTE-IANITY" is defined by what it is not.
It is defined in terms of national "Otherness".
It was implemented by means of the Roman army.
(It did not just float down out of the clouds)

The "Gentiles" were no longer legal in the empire!

Toto

This is a complete non sequitur.