Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doctor X · 11-25-2003, 01:35 PM

So how many gunmen does Shanks think were at Daley Plaza?

--J. "Back and to the LEFT!" D.

Jabu Khan · 11-25-2003, 03:24 PM

Forget the patina from would I've heard the message uses symbols from several different eras and theres even a greek letter sustituted for a Hebrew one towards the end.

I believe this info came from a report done by Isreal's Antiquity Authority but I'm not sure I can't remember where I found the article if anyone else knows of it I would appreciate a link.

Haran · 11-25-2003, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Jabu Khan
Forget the patina from would I've heard the message uses symbols from several different eras and theres even a greek letter sustituted for a Hebrew one towards the end.

Utterly untrue. This is one of Altman's wrong ideas before I feel that she actually even began to understand semitic paleography. To my knowledge, she is the only one to espouse this absurd idea and has probably backpeddled from that by now as well.

Wayne P · 11-25-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

"I don't know for sure whether this is a forged inscription, and I'm sort of cast as a defender of the inscription. I'm not," said moderator Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archeology Review, which published the initial findings. "What I do know is, Israeli authorities have badly managed the affair."

Sure, rush to judgement about the damn thing by collaborating in a book claiming it is real and then disclaim any defense of the object. All the while claiming everyone else has a bias against it. Wasn't that what his book with Witherington was all about, its authenticity?

Does this man have no shame?????

Jabu Khan · 11-26-2003, 07:18 PM

I found the articles:

http://www.archaeology.org/found.php...ary/index.html

http://www.archaeology.org/found.php.../ossuary3.html

http://www.archaeology.org/found.php.../ossuary2.html

Not only is it true the owner has had the ossuary removed from his toilet and has been arrested for forgery and dealing in false antiquities after several stencils and tools and soil from archealogical sites were found in his storage shed.

Toto · 11-27-2003, 11:20 PM

James ossuary opens a Pandora's box of suspected fakes

Quote:

At the American Schools of Oriental Research meeting last week, Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist Amir Ganor said the James ossuary investigation has expanded to encompass Bible-era archaeological artifacts collected over the past 15 years by the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.

. . .

In a presentation at the conference, Goren described the "Jerusalem Syndrome" of forged relics, a reference to a similarly named psychological ailment afflicting tourists who visit Jerusalem and then become convinced they are characters from the Bible. Focusing on four cases of dubious artifacts, including the James ossuary, he listed common characteristics of fakes from the last decade:

� Publication or planned publication of the relic in Biblical Archaeology Review.

� Authentication of the relic's age by Geological Survey of Israel scientists and the inscription by paleographer Andr� Lemaire of Paris' Sorbonne University.

� Comments by outside experts that it's too good to be true.

. . .

Sitting in the second row of the session was BAR editor Hershel Shanks, who afterward called the presentations "pretty one-sided" in dismissing the James ossuary. . . .

Doctor X · 11-28-2003, 01:01 AM

. . . and creationists find biology classes "pretty one-sided."

Those who forge forge for two reasons: money and fame . . . three reasons: money and fame and to validate a false-hood.

Depending on what theory you have as to "who" created the Piltdown Man forgery, it does seem that it provided attention to Britain as an important area in paleontology.

It does not have to be completely "dishonest." Take fans of psychics . . . please. . . . Yes, the spoon-bender is a fraud, but what about his fans? When confronted by an exposure, some will state that "of course" "Great Whatever" had to lie in this case--he was tired, the "energy was wrong," et cetera. IF he did not lie then the "greater wrong" of people thinking a legitimate psychic is a fraud is worse than lying!

Is your head spinning with that "logic?"

Look at it this way: someone "knows" the "basic TRUTH" of the Bible . . . a "little lie" to support it is "justified" to protect "the TRUTH." We "know" Solomon existed . . . what harm is it in producing proof?

It causes a great deal of harm, of course. It causes damage and wastes of time and credibility. The "loyal liars" do not see this; the malevolent forgers go to the bank.

--J.D.

Steven Carr · 11-28-2003, 04:00 AM

Goren says 'Past forgeries accepted as real suggest the science of paleography is "a fool's paradise," he said, useless for authenticating any inscriptions.'

Vorkosigan · 11-28-2003, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Authentication of the relic's age by Geological Survey of Israel scientists and the inscription by paleographer Andr� Lemaire of Paris' Sorbonne University.

>high fives Toto< Toto nailed this in the first thread. Long may Toto reign!

Quote:

Our discipline may be contaminated to some extent by more such fakes," Goren warned. Past forgeries accepted as real suggest the science of paleography is "a fool's paradise," he said, useless for authenticating any inscriptions.

No shit, Goren. Us non-professionals have been saying that for a year now. It is good to see the experts finally come around at last. Althougth they do have to be more circumspect than we do.

Vorkosigan

Haran · 11-28-2003, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Doctor X
Look at it this way: someone "knows" the "basic TRUTH" of the Bible . . . a "little lie" to support it is "justified" to protect "the TRUTH." We "know" Solomon existed . . . what harm is it in producing proof?

If you are comparing Christians to the believers in Psychics that you mentioned, then....BALONEY!

There may be a demented minority who think this way, certainly not unlike some who have atheist websites (what's a little white lie if it knocks down a few Christians, eh?), but I doubt the majority think this way.

As to the Ossuary, it is probably fake, but it is not as clear-cut a fake as many would have us believe. Period.

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11-25-2003, 01:35 PM	#11
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	So how many gunmen does Shanks think were at Daley Plaza? --J. "Back and to the LEFT!" D.

11-25-2003, 03:24 PM	#12
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	Forget the patina from would I've heard the message uses symbols from several different eras and theres even a greek letter sustituted for a Hebrew one towards the end. I believe this info came from a report done by Isreal's Antiquity Authority but I'm not sure I can't remember where I found the article if anyone else knows of it I would appreciate a link.

11-26-2003, 07:18 PM	#15
Jabu Khan Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: the impenetrable fortress of the bubbleheads Posts: 1,308	I found the articles: http://www.archaeology.org/found.php...ary/index.html http://www.archaeology.org/found.php.../ossuary3.html http://www.archaeology.org/found.php.../ossuary2.html Not only is it true the owner has had the ossuary removed from his toilet and has been arrested for forgery and dealing in false antiquities after several stencils and tools and soil from archealogical sites were found in his storage shed.

11-28-2003, 01:01 AM	#17
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	. . . and creationists find biology classes "pretty one-sided." Those who forge forge for two reasons: money and fame . . . three reasons: money and fame and to validate a false-hood. Depending on what theory you have as to "who" created the Piltdown Man forgery, it does seem that it provided attention to Britain as an important area in paleontology. It does not have to be completely "dishonest." Take fans of psychics . . . please. . . . Yes, the spoon-bender is a fraud, but what about his fans? When confronted by an exposure, some will state that "of course" "Great Whatever" had to lie in this case--he was tired, the "energy was wrong," et cetera. IF he did not lie then the "greater wrong" of people thinking a legitimate psychic is a fraud is worse than lying! Is your head spinning with that "logic?" Look at it this way: someone "knows" the "basic TRUTH" of the Bible . . . a "little lie" to support it is "justified" to protect "the TRUTH." We "know" Solomon existed . . . what harm is it in producing proof? It causes a great deal of harm, of course. It causes damage and wastes of time and credibility. The "loyal liars" do not see this; the malevolent forgers go to the bank. --J.D.

11-28-2003, 04:00 AM	#18
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Goren says 'Past forgeries accepted as real suggest the science of paleography is "a fool's paradise," he said, useless for authenticating any inscriptions.'

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