Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Loomis · 05-20-2006, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anat

Loomis, maybe a better way to put it would be "Yahweh became the god of Israel"

Why do you say this?

Because the bible told you?

Don't forget - the bible is fiction.

Quote:

Kuntillet Ajrud - 750 BC

When El shone forth {...} with the mountains melting to bless Baal in the day of
batt[le],(Baal fought) to honor El in the day of batt[le].

Archaeological evidence suggests Israel worshipped its namesake right up to the very end.

Anat · 05-20-2006, 07:11 PM

Yes, but at some point a group of people who started calling itself Israel (sometimes refering to its entirety, sometimes to non-Leviites/Cohenites only) worshipped YHWH. They used materials that had originally been composed for other gods, including El.

Magdlyn · 05-21-2006, 06:47 AM

The famous passage in Gen 17 where "God" appears to Abram and blesses him, promises him a child in his old age, and uncountable descendants, renames him and his wife, and requires circumcision of all his progeny and slaves as a sign of their "convenant," is also misunderstood.

It seems to me the name of YHWH, which only appears once, is a later insertion, as evidenced by YHWH introducing himself much later to Moses, from the burning bush, as if for the first time (Ex 3).

The real god in Gen 17 is El Shaddai, mistranslated as God Almighty. "YHWH [sic] appeared to Abram and said, I am El Shaddai." Shaddai shares a root word with the word for "breast," and seems to me to refer to a nurturing female diety, a fertility goddess, who promises those "exceedingly numerous" descendants. The rest of the references to the diety in this chapter call him/her merely El.

Sheshbazzar · 05-21-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

The famous passage in Gen 17 where "God" appears to Abram and blesses him, promises him a child in his old age, and uncountable descendants, renames him and his wife, and requires circumcision of all his progeny and slaves as a sign of their "convenant," is also misunderstood.

It seems to me the name of YHWH, which only appears once, is a later insertion, as evidenced by YHWH introducing himself much later to Moses, from the burning bush, as if for the first time (Ex 3).

Then what about Genesis 4:1?

Quote:

And the man knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, "I brought forth a man from YHWH."

and Genesis 4:26?

Quote:

And Seth also had a son, and he called his name Enosh, then men began to call upon the name YHWH.

And Genesis 12:7?

Quote:

And YHWH appeared unto Abram, and said, "Unto your seed I will give this land;" and there he built an alter unto YHWH, who appeared unto him.

And Genesis 12:8?

Quote:

....and there he built an alter unto YHWH, and called upon the name YHWH.

And Genesis 13:4?

Quote:

....and there Abram called on the name YHWH.

omitting all of the other dozens of instances where the name "YHWH" is specifically written as being both spoken and employed in the narrative.

Magdlyn · 05-21-2006, 09:48 AM

If we understand the 4 source hypothesis, this confusion and choice of name for "God" becomes clear.

the Yahwists v the Elohists.

Did you look at Exodus 3? This god is called almost turn by turn, both El and YHWH. It's kind of confusing. Moses does not know which god he is "talking" to.

Quote:

When YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, El called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" ...

Are there 2 gods in that bush? LOL

Could it be the original legend had it Moses was talking to El, but later Yahwists interpolated YHWH's name?

As far as the Garden of Eden story, that is was written later by the Yahwists whereas the other creation story was written by the Elohists.

I am sure better scholars then I have sorted all this out to a fare-thee-well.

Magdlyn · 05-21-2006, 09:53 AM

Also look at Exodux 6:2:

Exd 6:2 And God said to Moses, "I am YHWH.
Exd 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them.

:huh: :lol:

Sheshbazzar · 05-21-2006, 01:00 PM

I would like to share this exchange from an earlier thread with you.
"When does El become Yahweh?"

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar
Interesting how the Documentary Hypothesis 'theory' attempts to assign the first use of the Name YHWH to a late period to conform with that theories a priori conclusions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

No it doesn't.

On the contrary. The DH assigns the texts using Yahweh to the oldest of the four written sources.

It makes no claims about when people started using the name Yahweh - only that the name was already in use when the first parts of the Torah were written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The underlying text of Genesis 4:1 makes the clear statement that Eve both knew and spoke the Name YHWH, and now, without even a shred of any actual evidence, other than their own theories interpretations being forced upon latter texts of Scripture, the proponents of the DH deny the accuracy of what Gen.4:1 actually states, because it disagrees with their pet "theory", and claim that the Name YHWH was substituted into the story and into the text.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

No we don't.

The DH says nothing about the name Yahweh being "substituted into the text". It is assumed to have been there when the text was first written.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Archaeological discoveries continue to produce compelling evidence of Name being known and used prior to the time of the Exodus and of the writing down of the Hebrew Scriptures .
That evidence is strongly supportive of the the position that the original text as written, and as "read into the ears of all the people", did contain the Name YHWH, and such phrasing as "YHWH Elohim" and "YHWH your Elohim" from its inception. And that text is the authoritative one superseding the wording of any previous documents however closely parallel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

Which discoveries? According to modern archaeology, the Exodus never happened.

Besides, as I have already pointed, out, the DH makes no claims that the name Yahweh only started being used in later periods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Not quite Pervy, lets see your actual proof that Eve did not know or speak the Name YHWH, and that Moses (or any other whom you would rather credit) did not write the Name into the original text at every place that it occurs, thus far there is nothing but the hot air of DH theories and claims without evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

Apart from the obvious fact that Eve never existed, I need give no proof that the author(s) did not write the name "Yahweh" in the original texts because neither I nor the DH claim that the author(s) didn't do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Produce even a single genuine ancient document that omits the Name from Eve's testimony, then at least you would have something other than your imagination to validate your claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

Once again, according to the DH, the name Yahweh was in the original version of the text, so your request is nonsensical.

If you wish to attack and attempt to discredit the Documentary Hypothesis, you may wish to actually learn what it does and does not claim first.

Otherwise you simply end up looking foolish as you demand that I back up with proof various Strawman claims of your own invention that neither I, nor any other proponent of the DH, have actually made.

But here Magdlyn, your question and statement is making that very claim;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Could it be the original legend had it Moses was talking to El, but later Yahwists interpolated YHWH's name?

As far as the Garden of Eden story, that is was written later by the Yahwists whereas the other creation story was written by the Elohists.

Are in direct contradiction of these statements made earlier by Pervy with regards to this subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pervy

The DH assigns the texts using Yahweh to the oldest of the four written sources.

Loomis · 05-21-2006, 02:15 PM

Hey Sheshbazzar,

You can’t fool us: You are plotting Pervy against Magdlyn.

But it is not necessary for Pervy to agree with Magdlyn in order for Magdlyn’s allegations to be true. :bulb:

This takes away from your credibility. It does not reflect well on your ability to reason.

:rolling:

Loomis · 05-21-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Also look at Exodux 6:2:

Exd 6:2 And God said to Moses, "I am YHWH.
Exd 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them.

:huh: :lol:

It looks to me like Exodux 6:2-3 was not just an attempt to associate Yahweh with El Shaddai. It was even more insidious; The Priestly source was giving birth to the expression “Elohim” (as a singular noun and title).

He was saying that both gods had a bigger title that bonded them together.

Sheshbazzar · 05-21-2006, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

Hey Sheshbazzar,

You can’t fool us: You are plotting Pervy against Magdlyn.

No plotting involved, I stated the matter as straightforwardly as possible, their respective positions are contradictory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

But it is not necessary for Pervy to agree with Magdlyn in order for Magdlyn’s allegations to be true. :bulb:

While that may be true, it still is contrary to Pervy's position on the Documentary Hypothesis, for Magdlyn's allegations to be true, Pervy's must be false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loomis

This takes away from your credibility. It does not reflect well on your ability to reason.

My credibility? Which of these two opposing positions are correct?

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05-20-2006, 07:11 PM	#12
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	Yes, but at some point a group of people who started calling itself Israel (sometimes refering to its entirety, sometimes to non-Leviites/Cohenites only) worshipped YHWH. They used materials that had originally been composed for other gods, including El.

05-21-2006, 06:47 AM	#13
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	The famous passage in Gen 17 where "God" appears to Abram and blesses him, promises him a child in his old age, and uncountable descendants, renames him and his wife, and requires circumcision of all his progeny and slaves as a sign of their "convenant," is also misunderstood. It seems to me the name of YHWH, which only appears once, is a later insertion, as evidenced by YHWH introducing himself much later to Moses, from the burning bush, as if for the first time (Ex 3). The real god in Gen 17 is El Shaddai, mistranslated as God Almighty. "YHWH [sic] appeared to Abram and said, I am El Shaddai." Shaddai shares a root word with the word for "breast," and seems to me to refer to a nurturing female diety, a fertility goddess, who promises those "exceedingly numerous" descendants. The rest of the references to the diety in this chapter call him/her merely El.

05-21-2006, 09:53 AM	#16
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Also look at Exodux 6:2: Exd 6:2 And God said to Moses, "I am YHWH. Exd 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as El Shaddai, but by my name YHWH I did not make myself known to them. :huh: :lol:

05-21-2006, 02:15 PM	#18
Loomis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: The recesses of Zaphon Posts: 969	Hey Sheshbazzar, You can’t fool us: You are plotting Pervy against Magdlyn. But it is not necessary for Pervy to agree with Magdlyn in order for Magdlyn’s allegations to be true. :bulb: This takes away from your credibility. It does not reflect well on your ability to reason. :rolling:

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