Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 08-21-2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Eusebius of Caesarea particularly in his earlier works quotes the ending of Matthew in a shorter (non-Trinitarian form). IMHO this is probably because of reverence towards a sacred formula and does not imply the use of a different Greek text of Matthew

Andrew Criddle

Dear Andrew,
It would help if you could explain with a little more detail what you mean, and why you reached your opinion.

stuart shepherd

Hi Stuart

I'm not quite sure where I wasn't clear but I'll try and clarify.

We have no direct evidence of a non-Trinitarian form of the end of Matthew hence we should first look for other possibilities before deciding that Eusebius was using such a Greek text.

Eusebius' allusions to the end of Matthew vary. In some cases he is certainly abbreviating/paraphrasing hence it is prima-facie possible that what appear to be quotations of a non-Trinitarian text may be paraphrases rather than what the manuscripts known to Eusebius said.

We know that from c 250-450 CE there was a reluctance in some Christian quarters to publicly make available to everyone certain sacred formulae such as the Lord's prayer and the creed. (The Disciplina Arcani.) Eusebius' avoidance of the Trinitarian formula might be an example of this.

In some of his later post-Nicene works Eusebius does quote the Trinitarian formula from Matthew. This is sometimes misunderstood as an acceptance of Nicene orthodoxy by Eusebius after that council. In fact the Trinitarian formula is used polemically by Eusebius against extreme Nicenes like Marcellus whom Eusebius thought to be blurring the distinctness of the three persons in the Trinity.

All this IMO fits with the idea that originally Eusebius avoided quoting the reference to the Trinity out of reverence, but in later works where it was necessary to his polemical purpose he quoted it in full.

Andrew Criddle

Cege · 08-21-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Jesus was preaching to all, but demonstrating to Jews that he was the Messiah, because they had the checkable data.

What did the "checkable data" consist of?

Amaleq13 · 08-21-2007, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Quote:

Is this a statement of your faith or something you can support with specific passages from the Gospels?

What a strange question, in this forum.

Your response suggests you are clueless with regard to the purpose of this forum. Please make at least a nominal effort to connect your preaching to the texts in question.

storytime · 08-21-2007, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

If the disciples were told to go into all the nations of the world, then why did Jesus not go into Rome?

If Jesus purpose was to make disciples from all nations of the world, would he have not intended they become Jewish? Or do you think Jesus would have been promoting Gentilism - no laws, no covenants, and worship of other gods such as Apollo, Mercury, Jupiter, etc. ?

Even with all the screwed up text, I think the story relates how Jesus was gathering Jews and not Gentiles into his kingdom of Judaism (kingdom of God). Did Gods kingdom ever exist anywhere other than his namesake Israel in the ONE seed called Jacob?

Acording to the Morons....[sorry] Mormons, Jesus did travel elsewhere. After he left Palestine he caught a flight to the USA. I wonder if he flew first class? Anyway the Morons claim to be the new people of God. J. Smith said so.

Didn't that fanciful event occur in the early 1800's? Before the Wright brothers, I think. :banghead: I always wondered if that Mormoon guy named Macaroni robbed a bank or perhaps became partners with infamous ghost riders of those times.

Well, if the Mormons claim they are the new people of God then I hope they can straighten out the Right Wing Zionist Republican party.

angelo · 08-22-2007, 03:25 AM

Well, you see Joseph Smith claimed to have found some golden tablets. After he translated them, and put pen to paper these mysterious tablets flew back to heaven. So what is so strange about jesus flying to the Americas. The Marrons claim to be one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure about this Macaroni guy. Was macaroni named after him?

storytime · 08-22-2007, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clouseau

Jesus was preaching to all, but demonstrating to Jews that he was the Messiah, because they had the checkable data.

Evidently they didn't have THE checkable data as the OT God prohibits any savior, messiah, or son to stand by him as equal. The OT God stands alone, and that should have settled the matter but ....

storytime · 08-22-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Well, you see Joseph Smith claimed to have found some golden tablets. After he translated them, and put pen to paper these mysterious tablets flew back to heaven. So what is so strange about jesus flying to the Americas. The Marrons claim to be one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure about this Macaroni guy. Was macaroni named after him?

"Macaroni" is my tweak on Moroni their prophet. He spoke to the angel or something, I'm not that familiar with the Mormon story. So they claim to be one of the 12 tribes? Do they declare to which tribe they belong? All tribes were called Israel.

apatura_iris · 08-22-2007, 06:58 AM

During his first "sermon" after he reads the Haftorah in the synagogue (Lk 4) he tells the Jews there that no prophet is accepted in his own country, and compares himself to Elisha and Elijah who saved a gentile woman during a famine and healed Namaan, a gentile officer. Even though he was initially well received when he read the haftorah, once he made those statements about gentiles, the crowd went nuts and tried to throw him off a cliff.

Quote:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. 22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Josephâ€™s son? 23 [he is initially well received] And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. 24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. [he insinuates he is here to save the gentiles, not the jews] 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.[they change their minds and try to kill him]

Also, when Simon sees Jesus brought into the temple, he says:

Quote:

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

It's clear to me that, at least Jesus knew he would ultimately be rejected by the Jewish world and embraced by the gentile one. Unless it was all written in reverse to suit what transpired...

Blood of our Savior · 08-22-2007, 12:17 PM

He preached to who he could... that just happend to be jews.

No Robots · 08-22-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood of our Savior

He preached to who he could... that just happend to be jews.

You know, being one of them and all.

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08-22-2007, 03:25 AM	#35
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	Well, you see Joseph Smith claimed to have found some golden tablets. After he translated them, and put pen to paper these mysterious tablets flew back to heaven. So what is so strange about jesus flying to the Americas. The Marrons claim to be one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure about this Macaroni guy. Was macaroni named after him?

08-22-2007, 12:17 PM	#39
Blood of our Savior Banned Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 169	He preached to who he could... that just happend to be jews.

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