Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DCHindley · 12-29-2010, 08:00 PM

I jumped to the site in question yesterday and found at least one document in which Greek words written in Hebrew letters.

DCH

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Originally Posted by judge

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Close study of the Cairo Genizah fragments by Professor de Lange led to the discovery that some contained passages from the Bible in Greek written in Hebrew letters.

Does anyone know that this sentence means?

Were they passages that agreed with the LXX but written in hebrew?

Or were they greek words written in "hebrew" script?

DCHindley · 12-29-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Thank you Toto, an interesting post.

For me, there remain some problems with this presentation.

a. material analyzed ("Cairo Genizah ancient bible fragments") dates from "1,000 years after the original translation into Greek," --> contamination by many centuries of uber-zealous Christians.

The Cairo Synagogue Genizah ("store room") contains worn-out manuscripts containing the name of God that date to about the 10-11th century. Don't you think that Jews can preserve various Greek translations of Jewish scriptures without depending on Christians? The point of the article in question is that Jews were preserving Greek translations of Jewish scripture, quite *independently* of Christians, long after it was commonly assumed they had stopped using them in favor of the original Hebrew.

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b. reliance upon Josephus and Tacitus to gain the historical perspective, but both authors' writings, as I understand the situation, have been forged, at least in our oldest extant examples;

This issue is separate from that of Jewish preservation of Greek texts into medieval times.

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c. reference to Masoretic text, but which version? How confident are we about the validity of the oldest extant Hebrew text, given the millenia of Christian interference with the Septuagint?

There is only one version of the Hebrew Masoretic text (with a few scribal variants thrown in). At the time Jews standardized on it (supposedly in the 4th century), it represented one of several Hebrew textual recension's that were in circulation (the Babylonian recension, the others were related to Egypt and Palestine). The Greek Septuagint (the Law at least) seems to reflect the Egyptian recension of the Hebrew text. However, the MT is NOT a Hebrew translation of any Greek text.

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d. Is Akylah's (11th century) translation conformant with the version we have from the Hebrew version of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Do any of the Greek fragments from DSS correspond to Akylas' Greek translation?

Aquila's super literal translation of Jewish scriptures was believed to be 2nd century. The text which preserved portions of Aquila's translation of some of the historical books (I think, I read the article yesterday and it's later in the evening now) is 11th century. It included commentary that clearly identified the text being quoted as that of Aquila.

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I thought there were several interesting points made by the Google book. Baptism is presented in a light new to me, i.e. as substitute for circumcision, and then, too, the notion that Judaism was actively seeking converts among the Roman elite. I was also impressed by the claim that the Ebionists followed Akylas' version--I wonder how that was established, perhaps via Josephus or Tacitus?

avi

DCH

judge · 12-29-2010, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

There is only one version of the Hebrew Masoretic text (with a few scribal variants thrown in). At the time Jews standardized on it (supposedly in the 4th century), it represented one of several Hebrew textual recension's that were in circulation (the Babylonian recension, the others were related to Egypt and Palestine).

What evidence do we have that 4th century jews were using Babylonian, Egtptian and Palestinian rescensions?

mountainman · 12-29-2010, 10:19 PM

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It was begun by the 3rd century BCE and completed before 132 BCE.

But isn't this "completion date" that of the Letter of Aristeas cited by Josephus? The question was, if this letter is a forgery, and we thus do not have a date in the 2nd century BCE, what other citations exist to the Greek LXX before Origen?

When was the Hebrew Bible first translated to Greek?

The primary source of the Letter of Aristeas is Josephus. There are other mentions according to this article (Summary of a lecture by J. Davila on 11 February 1999), as follows:

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JOSEPHUS (_Antiquites_ 12.1-118), who gives a close paraphrase of the work as part of his overall agenda to justify Judaism for a hellenistic/Roman audience. He puts no more emphasis on the translation itself than did the original Aristeas; the real interest of the story for Josephus seems to be the good relations it shows between Jews and the Egyptian king as well as the king's deep respect for Jewish tradition. These elements were important for the case Josephus was making in Rome that Jews were an ancient nation respected by other ancient Near Eastern traditions and that they were able to get along with neighboring nations, despite the debacle of the revolt against Roman rule in 68-70 CE.

It is worth noting that Josephus seems to handle the text of Aristeas with reasonable care. He abbreviates, but there is little indication of deliberate distortion. He changes the name Aristeas to Aristeaus; his numbers frequently vary from our MSS of Aristeas (but with no clear tendenz); the details of the king's dedicatory offerings (paras. 57-84) are sometimes different, but this whole passage is very difficult and Josephus may not have understood it much better than we do; he gives the name of the high priest as Elisha (Elissaios) not Eleazar (paras. 97). All these could be variants in the Aristeas MS Josephus had before him rather than deliberate changes by Josephus. Otherwise, he makes a small alteration of the sense of v. 18 in para. 23; he adds a little of own material from another source in paras. 43-44; he adds an interpretive comment in para. 91; he waters down the curse on anyone who alters the translation in para. 109; and makes perhaps one or two other small changes. But basically he seems to have summarized the text he had before him.

PHILO OF ALEXANDRIA (around the turn of the era; _Vita Mosis_ 2.25-44) also tells the story of a translation of the Pentateuch under Philadelphus with and outline very similar to Aristeas (it is quite likely he read the work). The king sends an embassy to Judea to get some translators; he treats them to feasting with witty and virtuous conversation and questioning; the translation takes place on the island of Pharos. But Philo seems to be the first to add that by prophetic inspiration all the translators produced exactly the same Greek text independently. He also tells of an annual festival at Pharos to his day which celebrated the translation. His agenda was to show that the LXX (which Philo used instead of the HB) was just as inspired as the original Hebrew.

THE PROLOGUE TO BEN SIRA. Jesus ben Sira wrote the wisdom book Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) in the early second century BCE in Hebrew, and his grandson translated it into Greek in 132 BCE. The grandson refers in passing to existing Greek translation of the law, the prophecies "and the rest of the books" and he seems less than satisfied with this translation, indicating it has "no little difference" from the original texts. There is no indication that the grandson knew Aristeas, but if he is referring to the Old Greek translation, he may be demonstrating the attitude that Aristeas was written to combat.

ARISTOBULOS may have written around the middle of the second century BCE; his work is lost except for quotations preserved by Eusebius and Clement of Alexandria. (These are translated in OTP 2, pp. 830-42, esp. 839-40). He claims that there were earlier translations even before Alexander's time (and that Pythagoras and Plato were influenced by them). He refers to a translation under Ptolemy Philadelphus, managed by Demetrius Phalereus. The latter detail is probably unhistorical and it is only known elsewhere from Aristeas, so Aristobulus may have read him (or conceivably, the other way around). He uses the story to argue for the primacy of Jewish traditions over Greek philosophy

DCHindley · 12-30-2010, 06:17 AM

From what I understand, and I came by this factoid second hand through a monograph on the history of the Samaritan Pentateuch by James Purvis, is that this concept of 3 recensions was the proposal of Frank Moore Cross.

Unfortunately I have just given myself a concussion (slipped on glare ice while taking out the garbage) and don't have it in me at the moment to look up the literature Purvis cited, but I could later today if you want to check them out at the library. My recollection is that his proposal is based on the biblical mss and fragments recovered from the caves around Qumran, and that it is generally accepted in academia.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

There is only one version of the Hebrew Masoretic text (with a few scribal variants thrown in). At the time Jews standardized on it (supposedly in the 4th century), it represented one of several Hebrew textual recension's that were in circulation (the Babylonian recension, the others were related to Egypt and Palestine).

What evidence do we have that 4th century jews were using Babylonian, Egyptian and Palestinian rescensions?

Chili · 12-30-2010, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

From what I understand, and I came by this factoid second hand through a monograph on the history of the Samaritan Pentateuch by James Purvis, is that this concept of 3 recensions was the proposal of Frank Moore Cross.

Unfortunately I have just given myself a concussion (slipped on glare ice while taking out the garbage) and don't have it in me at the moment to look up the literature Purvis cited, but I could later today if you want to check them out at the library. My recollection is that his proposal is based on the biblical mss and fragments recovered from the caves around Qumran, and that it is generally accepted in academia.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

There is only one version of the Hebrew Masoretic text (with a few scribal variants thrown in). At the time Jews standardized on it (supposedly in the 4th century), it represented one of several Hebrew textual recension's that were in circulation (the Babylonian recension, the others were related to Egypt and Palestine).

What evidence do we have that 4th century jews were using Babylonian, Egyptian and Palestinian rescensions?

Happy hang-over but hope the New Year comes in well for you.

DCHindley · 12-30-2010, 08:35 AM

Same to ya, Chili!

Just stocked up on Aspirin & Ibuprofin.

Tip: After drinking to excess, take 3-4 aspirin before passing out, and you will not have a headache in the morning. Doesn't work if you wait for the headache to start first.

DCH aka "Bumpy Head"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Happy hang-over but hope the New Year comes in well for you.

avi · 12-31-2010, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Unfortunately I have just given myself a concussion (slipped on glare ice while taking out the garbage)
...
Tip: After drinking to excess, take 3-4 aspirin before passing out, and you will not have a headache in the morning. Doesn't work if you wait for the headache to start first.

Thanks for the humor, always welcome, but, on a more serious note, head injuries and etoh don't mix well, though it is difficult to avoid the latter on New Year's eve. (You will note that in cases of epidural hematoma, benzodiazepines (same pharmacological family as etoh) are not employed to prevent seizure!!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

The Cairo Synagogue Genizah ("store room") contains worn-out manuscripts containing the name of God that date to about the 10-11th century. Don't you think that Jews can preserve various Greek translations of Jewish scriptures without depending on Christians?

I agree that jews and muslims can possess ancient documents without depending on christians as gate keepers. In my opinion, however, most of the ancient documents were destroyed by those with opinions about judaism that range from not entirely sympathetic to hostile. I am always suspicious that our extant documents have either been forged, or represent extracts that passed the litmus test of whichever religious/political authority happened to be in control in Egypt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

The point of the article in question is that Jews were preserving Greek translations of Jewish scripture, quite *independently* of Christians, long after it was commonly assumed they had stopped using them in favor of the original Hebrew.

This is precisely what I find to be too facile. I doubt, very sincerely, (I am filled with doubt,) that any document in that storeroom, survived BOTH christian and muslim oversight, unadulterated.

Maybe the jews did obsess about a perceived need to employ Greek, rather than Hebrew, to preserve the contents of the Tanakh, but, such an idea seems, to me, much more like the mentality of a christian, than a jew.

I am not writing that professor Delange errs, simply that his explanation is a bit too simplistic for my taste. My glass is generally half empty, except on New Year's eve, when nary a drop remains.

avi

DCHindley · 12-31-2010, 04:48 PM

avi,

Fear not, there will be very little drinking going on at my end. Chili, on the other hand, may have different ideas. No problems so far, so I am likely not among the 1-2% of head trauma sufferers who develop a subdural hematoma.

The web sites in question also have Jewish Greek documents from Byzantine locations, if I remember correctly. Unlike you, I have faith in medieval Jews ability to keep their distance from direct Christian influence. That doesn't rule out the possibility of reactions to Christian claims and censorship.

Remember Origen of Alexandria? His Hexapla contained not only a column for books of Hebrew scripture, as well as one in which the Hebrew was transliterated into Greek letters. That there was a transliteration of a Greek book using Hebrew letters on the website in question does not surprise me (they may have arbitrarily assigned certain Hebrew letters or combinations of letters that have no Greek equivalent to represent vowels).

It is a matter of familiarity of alphabet. My comprehension of Hebrew is severely limited by my unfamiliarity with the alphabet. I learned whatever Greek I know (and it isn't too much anymore) simply because there is a certain overlap in letter forms that made it easier to comprehend for me.

As for censorship, luckily it isn't uniform everywhere at all times. Many of the passages of the Talmud that were censored by Christians were reconstructed by locating manuscripts that escaped the censor's reach. Sometimes, too, the censor gets some things and misses others. It's a little like the hit and miss way that fragmentary manuscripts have to be compared ("collated") to recover the missing text (more or less).

If it weren't for Jews complaining that Christians were claiming that Jews had "excised" passages that Christians were absolutely sure must have been in Hebrew scripture because they were in their own Greek translations, that caused Christians like Origen and others to look at the issue more closely, including the Hebrew, to determine what was actually the case. In the end the Christian admitted they were wrong about claims like this, and in fact ended up correcting their Latin translations of the Greek OT based on what was actually found in the Hebrew.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by avi

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Unfortunately I have just given myself a concussion (slipped on glare ice while taking out the garbage)
...
Tip: After drinking to excess, take 3-4 aspirin before passing out, and you will not have a headache in the morning. Doesn't work if you wait for the headache to start first.

Thanks for the humor, always welcome, but, on a more serious note, head injuries and etoh don't mix well, though it is difficult to avoid the latter on New Year's eve. (You will note that in cases of epidural hematoma, benzodiazepines (same pharmacological family as etoh) are not employed to prevent seizure!!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

The Cairo Synagogue Genizah ("store room") contains worn-out manuscripts containing the name of God that date to about the 10-11th century. Don't you think that Jews can preserve various Greek translations of Jewish scriptures without depending on Christians?

I agree that jews and muslims can possess ancient documents without depending on christians as gate keepers. In my opinion, however, most of the ancient documents were destroyed by those with opinions about judaism that range from not entirely sympathetic to hostile. I am always suspicious that our extant documents have either been forged, or represent extracts that passed the litmus test of whichever religious/political authority happened to be in control in Egypt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

The point of the article in question is that Jews were preserving Greek translations of Jewish scripture, quite *independently* of Christians, long after it was commonly assumed they had stopped using them in favor of the original Hebrew.

This is precisely what I find to be too facile. I doubt, very sincerely, (I am filled with doubt,) that any document in that storeroom, survived BOTH christian and muslim oversight, unadulterated.

Maybe the jews did obsess about a perceived need to employ Greek, rather than Hebrew, to preserve the contents of the Tanakh, but, such an idea seems, to me, much more like the mentality of a christian, than a jew.

I am not writing that professor Delange errs, simply that his explanation is a bit too simplistic for my taste. My glass is generally half empty, except on New Year's eve, when nary a drop remains.

avi

aeebee50 · 01-01-2011, 06:44 AM

Helped to spread the word of God, which is why others had their translations.

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01-01-2011, 06:44 AM	#20
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	Helped to spread the word of God, which is why others had their translations.

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